Mr Ralph Howell: It is difficult to follow the hon. Gentleman's argument. This country and the whole world have a problem, but he simply describes what it was like so many years ago. It must be right to address the problem and to find a way to solve it. If my proposals are not acceptable, where are his proposals?
Mr Ralph Howell: As my hon. Friend acknowledged, a minimum income operates for every individual in the country. Every individual can have support. That counters my hon. Friend's concern about the £100 being regarded as a minimum wage.
Mr Ralph Howell: I was in the House when the draw was announced, and I heard Madam Speaker call the ticket that I had just signed. I was in no doubt that my name had been called, and it is rather strange that there was any misunderstanding. I am extremely sorry that the hon. Gentleman lost so much time preparing his debate. I wondered why the Whips had still not told me how to proceed some days after my...
Mr Ralph Howell: I am sorry that my hon. Friend does not agree with the idea of the state being the employer of last resort, but I am grateful to him for his pleasant references to what I have tried to achieve in the past. I am sorry that my hon. Friend has not taken on board the fact that the state is the provider of last resort and, therefore, it is the waster of last resort because it insists on providing...
Mr Ralph Howell: May I clarify that point? There is a great difference between fitting somebody into a training scheme and adding him to a work force—tree planting or whatever it might be. It is a pity that so many difficulties are being put in the way.
Mr Ralph Howell: I beg to move, That this House recognises that unemployment is nearly three million and rising; considers that unemployment is wasteful and soul destroying; recalls the original Beveridge proposals; believes that reform of the trade unions and the removal of restrictive practices have a valuable part to play in increasing employment opportunities; believes that the great majority of the...
Mr Ralph Howell: My solution, when I come to it, will be comprehensive—to include anyone who wants to work. The state is the provider of the last resort; it has to make sure that everyone has adequate funds for housing, clothing and food. We spend about £10 billion in support of the unemployed. All I am saying is that we could offer work to everyone who wants to work, for roughly the same money—but I...
Mr Ralph Howell: That point has been well made, and I believe that the figure is higher than £8 billion or £10 billion. We have now reached the stage at which the official figure for the coming year is more than £10 billion of total waste; £10 billion of our money will be paid to people who in the main desperately want to work, and it will be paid on the condition that they do nothing whatever to help...
Mr Ralph Howell: Yes; I will deal with that question in due course. People must have a choice. My scheme does not involve the direction of labour. What I shall suggest will be in no way compulsory. I say only that the state should offer work of various kinds—for example, environmental work, such as President Roosevelt offered in the 1930s. That category could cover all sorts of activities—improving...
Mr Ralph Howell: In principle, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. However, I do not believe that his figures are correct. I do believe that we have not honoured in every case what we should have honoured for 16 and 17-year-olds. I very much regret that, because it discredits such schemes. However, let that not put anyone off the idea. The guarantee has proved a little difficult; I know that we intend to correct...
Mr Ralph Howell: rose—
Mr Ralph Howell: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend who makes a valuable point. When we talk about the social damage being done and about the overall cost, we should realise that a huge cost goes along with unemployment, especially for young people in the inner cities, in terms of policing and the extra cost of insurance for homes that are being burgled week in and week out. A tremendous benefit would...
Mr Ralph Howell: I was talking about the stepping up of the age limit at which benefit would be withdrawn and at which there would be no entitlement to benefit. By the time the 21-year-olds reached the age of 22, the limit would be stepped up to 23. No more young people would ever get into the dependency culture.
Mr Ralph Howell: Of course we should tighten up the work test. When the scheme was fully operative, it would be a work test. There would be no payments to new age travellers when the scheme was fully operative. There would be no classification of "unemployed". Work would be offered to everybody, and people could take that work the day after they left their previous employment. There would be no break....
Mr Ralph Howell: I am grateful for that suggestion. I do not take a rigid view; I am suggesting the scheme as a cockshy. Refinements may be needed and what my hon. Friend suggests may be one of them. The scheme would simplify everything. There would be no tribunals or refunds and no complicated calculations involving thousands of civil servants mulling over silly sums and claiming back £2 here or as little...
Mr Ralph Howell: I agree with my hon. Friend. I should like us to go for the full scheme immediately, but it is not practicable to do so. Once the principle was in place, however, we could adjust benefits accordingly and, in due course, phase them out and so wean the whole country off the dependency culture. That could not be done immediately. That is why I suggest that, initially, while we are trying to...
Mr Ralph Howell: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was in his place when I explained my scheme in full. I said—I was challenged on this by my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts)—that a family receiving a total of £150 in various benefits today would automatically receive £50 in benefit, while the parent or parents would be offered 40 hours work at £2·50. Both parents could earn...
Mr Ralph Howell: Perhaps it would be necessary to introduce a refinement there, although I personally believe that, if someone seriously wants work, he will find the time to look for it after he has put in his 40 hours. We do not want too much of a nanny state, and if we go in for such provisions, we may find that the scheme is wrecked. Over the years, I have received a great deal of support for my scheme....
Mr Ralph Howell: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. A constituent of mine—a Mr. Haines—has suddenly found himself unemployed at the age of 58. He started work when he was 15 and spent 41 years in employment and two years in self-employment. He is not entitled to any unemployment benefit—partly, I think, because his wife works for more than 16 hours a week, and perhaps partly because of...
Mr Ralph Howell: I am grateful for those comments. We must curb wasteful Government expenditure. We waste at least £10 billion in this area, and that is one of the most important aspects of the problem. We can push and push to no avail when the time is not right, but I believe that the right moment has arrived. All sides of the political spectrum realise that this is not a party political issue—it is a...
