Mr Alastair Harrison: I should like to ask my right hon. Friend to consider very carefully whether he cannot accept this Amendment. It has very definite advantages, and, in particular, it has a form of justice in it in that the person to be retained would be paid at the rate authorised, so that qualified people with special qualifications would receive a better share. It is quite clear that this short-term...
Mr Alastair Harrison: Would my hon. Friend agree that fairness might be reconstituted by removing any farm of hourly limitation on any shop, provided that there was a limitation on the number of hours any individual could work in the shop?
Mr Alastair Harrison: On a point of order, Sir Gordon. You called me to speak following the hon. Member for Dudley (Mr. Wigg) before we were interrupted by these points of order.
Mr Alastair Harrison: Thank you very much, Sir Gordon. I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving us the opportunity to discuss this point. The more one studies the OFFICIAL REPORT of the debate on 27th November, the more it becomes apparent to the back benchers, who look up with respect to the Front Benchers—
Mr Alastair Harrison: —that we were disgracefully misled by both Front Benches. The right hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Strachey) gave us a long dissertation on virement and its application to this Money Resolution. So far as I can see, it has no application whatever. The whole position in regard to the Bill, the Money Resolution and the financing of it, has become increasingly complicated. I must confess...
Mr Alastair Harrison: I bow to your Ruling, Sir Gordon. I was trying to back up my arguments with a quotation from a speech made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations, who had rather different views on defence in the thirties from those he has today. I hope that I have said sufficient for my right hon. Friend to consider very carefully whether this Bill ought not to be taken...
Mr Alastair Harrison: I have listened with interest to the discussion so far, especially to the speech of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oldham, West (Mr. Hale). I wonder if it will help the hon. Gentleman if I refer to some writings of a previous hon. Member. I quote a few sentences from "The Decline and Fall", which would seem particularly relevant to our discussion. … but the timid and luxurious...
Mr Alastair Harrison: I am very interested in that intervention. I am not aware of any variations in the current Regular pay scales which might attract the additional volunteers which would be necessary. If my hon. Friend is referring to the possibility in a later Amendment under which a man who is called up like this would be able to switch to the "Ever-readies" and get the bonus, there might be some relevance in...
Mr Alastair Harrison: If I have it right, under the Bill a person who is retained does anyhow receive the equivalent of Regular pay; so there is nothing whatever for him to gain by volunteering.
Mr Alastair Harrison: I take the point which my right hon. Friend makes. I had overlooked the bounty which is, in part, relevant to the earlier intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for the Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies).
Mr Alastair Harrison: That is a point which one might have to consider, that there would not be re-engagement by National Service men. It is very difficult—this comes back to the earlier point—to have any appreciation of how successful my right hon. Friend's campaign with bounties has been in persuading National Service men to become Regulars. Some of us have had intimations from unofficial sources about how...
Mr Alastair Harrison: I did imply that I did not think that the extra expenditure would seriously embarrass the Treasury. Unfortunately the figures are not available to us at the present time. The point of the Amendment is that we should maintain the traditional control over the Army in peace-time, and I think that my right hon. Friend ought to consider very carefully whether it is not a practical thing to do....
Mr Alastair Harrison: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I ask my right hon. Friend to look very carefully at this Amendment. I do not say that it will not cause him a little inconvenience, but I am sure that he is a man who believes in Parliament, and, consequently, believes in keening Parliament fully informed about things which Parliament can be told without causing a breach of security.
Mr Alastair Harrison: My right hon. Friend has said that there will be about 170,000 men, of whom about 10,000 will be National Service men. Would that mean a Regular complement of about 160,000 and that that is all the Regular soldiers he expects to get?
Mr Alastair Harrison: I do not quite follow the difference between directing labour in peace-time now and directing labour when the right hon. Gentleman brought in conscription in 1947. I should have thought that there was some similarity, and that it is not right to say that this is the first time it has happened.
Mr Alastair Harrison: Does my hon. and gallant Friend think it fair that one should name senior officers to back up one's argument? When the Chancellor of the Exchequer made a mistake, we did not hear him say that he had acted on the advice of Sir Frank Lee or somebody like that. Is it not a dangerous practice that is now creeping in when generals are being conscripted, as it were, to back up politicians?
Mr Alastair Harrison: The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that we should concentrate on a conventional army. Does he favour conscription, or what method does he propose to get the men?
Mr Alastair Harrison: I was interested to follow the remarks of the hon. Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris), particularly in his final flood, because what my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agiculture did today was to put out some signposts, and pretty obvious ones, concerning the Government's attitude towards the agricultural and horticultural industry in connection with our entering the European Common Market....
Mr Alastair Harrison: I agree with my right hon. Friend, but at the same time it would not be possible for that surplus wheat to be subsidised by the country of origin and, therefore, it would not be profitable for long for that country to go on exporting wheat at £14, £15 or £16 per ton as we are finding in the United Kingdom markets at present. The effect on certain other products such as beef and lamb would...
Mr Alastair Harrison: Would the hon. Gentleman be a little more explicit about there not being any debates? Does he think that there are no Estimates debates or anything like that?
