Mr Humphrey Atkins: No doubt I misunderstood the hon. Gentleman, and I shall study what he said in Hansard. My firm impression, although I may have have been wrong, is that he was supporting his case by quoting press reports of what Irish Ministers had said and purporting to believe them. My impression is that most people, with the exception of the Unionist parties, are pleased with the agreement. I am one of...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: My hon. Friend says, "Hear, hear." I take that point absolutely. It has been mentioned already in this debate that Northern Ireland is marginally different from Surrey. Most of the differences are historical. When I first took up my duties as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in 1979, I was subjected to a long lecture by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mr. Hume) about Irish history. We had...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: Yes, and look at the fuss that that caused. That is why I am unable to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow), to whose speech yesterday I listened with great interest and whose actions I very much respect, that regional councils are the way forward. He did not explain—nor did any other right hon. or hon. Member—how the power to be given to regional councils should...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: They may not get better.
Mr Humphrey Atkins: I shall be very brief, but I must comment on what I regard as a deplorable speech from the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer). He knows as well as anyone else in the House that the Provisional IRA and all other terrorist organisations are evil and ruthless. So far as one can judge, they want only one thing: to overthrow the existing order and replace it with...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: Perhaps I could remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman that this House and the other place make the law. We are being invited to continue a law that we have made. If we pass it, it is lawful. The point that I am trying to make is that we are dealing with evil men. The security forces, whether they be the British Army or the Royal Ulster Constabulary, which we hire to defend innocent...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: Predictably, the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) spent a good part of her speech in attacking my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. We knew that she would do that. Unfortunately, almost all of her attack went astray because she based it on inaccuracies. She attributed words to my right hon. Friend that he did not use, she misread what was in the White...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: No. Will the hon. Lady be good enough to confirm that the Labour party's policy on airports is the same now as it was in 1978? In 1978 the Labour Government's White Paper rejected the suggestion that the air transport industry should be subject to the damaging restrictions on its operations which would be the outcome of the forced diversion of traffic to regional airports". Is that what the...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The hon. Lady's whole case seems to be based on her belief that air passenger traffic will not grow. If it grows, and passengers want to be able to use terminals in the south-east—
Mr Humphrey Atkins: No, I am dealing with the hon. Lady—either passengers must be allowed to do so or they must be forced to go somewhere else. We shall no doubt hear the point developed further in speeches from the Opposition Benches, and I shall be interested to hear them.
Mr Humphrey Atkins: I think that the hon. Gentleman is likely to be called. No doubt he will make a powerful speech, to which we shall all listen with great interest. I hope to be fairly short to enable him to do that. I express my thanks to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport and to my hon. Friend the Minister for Housing and Construction for having refused the application by the...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: It is possible to have the power to regulate the number of movements at an airport even if one does not own it, as the legislation will make clear. I should like to make a suggestion to my right hon. Friend about noise. I understand that he proposes not to seek to enforce the 275,000 voluntary limit which is in force at Heathrow. I should like—I am sure everyone would think this...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: My hon. Friend wishes to intervene but I have not finished the point that I was making. On the subject of night noise, I am pleased to see that a study of the type of noise that wakes people—that is not the phrase used, but that is what the study is about—is now being conducted by civil servants. That is encouraging. I suggest that when that study is complete the movement of aircraft at...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: I shall not do that for a good reason, as my hon. Friend will understand. On page 39 of the White Paper is a table showing the area affected by various levels of noise. If he reads the table he will find that noise in the areas most affected—that is at the higher level of the noise and number index—has been reduced much less than anywhere else. Many of the people affected are those whom...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: I am arguing specifically about the amount of noise suffered by those living near airports. If aeroplanes make less noise, it does not matter so much if there are more of them. To be fair to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, he introduced legislation into the House to give him the power to impose a limit of 275,000 ATM. He did not get that through the House, partly because of the...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: Indeed—and some of my hon. Friends. As my right hon. Friend has given up trying to impose that limit because he does not think that he will get it through, I am suggesting that any increase should be tied to the introduction of quieter aeroplanes. I think that that is a reasonable proposition. Most of what I have said has related to Heathrow, but I believe that many of the points that I...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: $1·28.
Mr Humphrey Atkins: It is in the Estimates.
Mr Humphrey Atkins: When my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State opened the debate he referred to the fact that the Select Committee on Defence, of which I am Chairman, had commented that he did not devote very much space in the White Paper to broad policy issues. However, he spent quite a bit of the first part of his speech doing that, for which I was grateful. I hoped we might hear something of the same...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The right hon. Gentleman said that three type 23 frigates would cost £500 million. They do not, and this is stated in the White Paper. They cost £110 million each. If he cannot multiply 110 by three he should not be sitting on the Opposition Front Bench. According to the Opposition's amendment, the Labour Party's policy is to cancel Trident, to remove all nuclear bases from the United...
