Mr Humphrey Atkins: We have been asked to be brief and I shall be, but I wish to say two or three things. First, many people will agree that this debate has a depressingly familiar ring. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is absolutely right to draw to our attention the fact that terrorist activity and its consequences in the Province are infinitely less than they were 50 years ago....
Mr Humphrey Atkins: Does anybody seriously maintain that there are more than 15,000 people in the Province whose sole desire is to get their way by engaging in terrorist activity?
Mr Humphrey Atkins: That is most interesting and represents a considerable change from what I was told when I was there by hon. Members who are now in the House. Do they say that there are more than 15,000 active terrorists in the Province?
Mr Humphrey Atkins: That is what I am talking about and I do not believe that there are. There is a small number of active terrorists, a lot less than 15,000. Somebody with more knowledge than I have may be able to give a more accurate figure, but I do not think so. The people who desire to get their way by shooting, causing explosions and killing, and who are trying to do that all the time form a small number....
Mr Humphrey Atkins: My hon. Friend says that it has happened already, but I remind him that Northern Ireland is still a part of the United Kingdom.
Mr Humphrey Atkins: If it had been, there would have been; but it has not. There are two reasons why the change will not happen. First, it impresses me that all members of the Government have, for eight years now—including myself when I was a member of it—been firm in their belief that such a change would not happen. I still believe that; so does my right hon. Friend; and so do all Members of the...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: Does my right hon. Friend accept that those hon. Members on both sides of the House who know the present director-general will agree with her and with the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Sir J. Callaghan) that he is a man of exceptional intelligence and integrity? Has she had any communication from the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth about whether, if the...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to paragraph 183 of our report, which says: The evidence is that the action of the Prime Minister's office on 6 January … was without her direct authority. She has stated she had no knowledge on 6 January of what was taking place. We accept this. Is the right hon. Gentleman telling the House that he does not agree with the 10 Members of the Select...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: According to the clock on the wall, the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) has spoken for 23 minutes on a matter of some interest to the House, but despite the fact that he is still the Opposition spokesman on defence he spent only six of those minutes talking about the defence implications of Westland plc. I understand the reason for that. No doubt if the right hon. Gentleman had...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: It is our business to keep up the pressure on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and, as I have just implied, I propose to do so. My other point about the third report involves the ownership and control of defence contractors. We examined in some detail two important questions. One of them involved the restrictions which prevent control of a company passing outside the United...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The right hon. Gentleman is asking me to do exactly what I have said that I will not do. We have produced our report and all the evidence, including the extracts to which he referred, and we are content to be judged by the House as to whether or not we have done a good job. I also said that anyone can say what he likes. That is so, and the right hon. Gentleman no doubt will. We sought to do...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The right hon. Gentleman is Chairman of the Public Accounts Committe, as I well know. I said that I was speaking only on behalf of the Defence Committee. I thought that, had the right hon. Gentleman wanted to make that point he would have done so in a speech. But he has made it in an intervention which no doubt has been just as well noted. I have given three examples that occurred...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The right hon. and learned Member for Aberavon (Mr. Morris) said that the Select Committee has requested the support of the House in obtaining the attendance of civil servants. If he reads paragraph 231 again, he will see that that is not the case at all. We said that we wished to complete our inquiry as far as possible on the evidence before us before reporting to the House, and then we...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: If highly skilled people in this country want to take part in this kind of research and development and our firms do not take part, will these people not go to America anyway?
Mr Humphrey Atkins: I quoted the words of Lord Glenarthur who was speaking on behalf of the Government. I am bound to tell the hon. Gentleman that a Minister speaking on behalf of the Government carries more weight with me than even Lord Carver.
Mr Humphrey Atkins: Before I come to my comments on the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, I shall spend some time dealing with the speech made by the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies), speaking on behalf of the Labour party. Several points arise from his speech that I wish to explore. He has made it clear that it is Labour party policy to abandon the nuclear...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: It was almost exactly 22 years ago that the Government of the day, with the full approval of both Houses of Parliament, established the criminal injuries compensation scheme. The scheme was intended, and still is intended, to provide some measure of compensation to people who have suffered injury through criminal action and who are unable to get any kind of recompense, either because the...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The speech of my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland showed that, although the Government will be obliged to consult several people and bodies, they will not be obliged to consult the local authorities. Why should that be at the Secretary of State's discretion? I understand my hon. Friend's arguments so far, but why does he wish to relieve the Government of the obligation to...
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The Select Committee was careful not to make any recommendations. If the right hon. Gentleman reads the report again, he will find that that is so. With respect, he is not entitled to say that the report favours a certain course.
Mr Humphrey Atkins: The House has just listened to two very powerful speeches by two Members of Parliament from Northern Ireland—the hon. Member for Upper Bann (Mr. McCusker) and the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley). All right hon. and hon,. Members fully understand those speeches. The hon. Member for Upper Bann has spent far more of his time than anybody ought to have to spend comforting the...
