Mr Arthur Tiley: I am the first to say that the hon. and learned Gentleman is always fair in debate. I am anxious to make it clear that in this country and throughout Europe our employers are not of the type that he is suggesting. The main difference is that our employers, without impetus from Parliament or anyone else, have introduced private schemes of their own volition covering 10 million of our...
Mr Arthur Tiley: Transferability is very important. Would the hon. Gentleman include in his proposals the provision that after the policy is laid down the pension should be frozen until retirement age and not encashed at the moment of changing jobs, as is the case with most schemes now?
Mr Arthur Tiley: That is not true.
Mr Arthur Tiley: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time. Sir Robert, you have given the Clause an ominous number—new Clause 7. I hope that we shall not have the same dissension about the Clause as we had on Clause 7 of the Bill. I hope, too, that we shall not need to spend as long on it. Hon. Members will see that the Clause stands in my name only. This is not because it lacks support. It is...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I must be explaining the Clause very badly if the hon. Gentleman has come to that conclusion. My whole argument is that we have already created these monopolies almost exactly in the way enunciated by the hon. Gentleman. We have no powers whatever to direct the editorial policies of those magazines into the channels we wish to see them in order to supply these more enlightened programmes, nor...
Mr Arthur Tiley: It will be the sole magazine with the right to announce commercial television programmes. I will deal further with the hon. Gentleman's point in a moment. We would have the B.B.C., with its two programmes and the Radio Times,and the one mass-circulated national magazine, with area editions, for commercial television. There is no opportunity for the successful launching of another commercial...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I think that it is better to have got my right hon. Friend's Clause 7 rather than my new Clause 7. In view of my right hon. Friend's speech, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.
Mr Arthur Tiley: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that it is far more important to debate on the Floor of the House the Beeching Report for several days than it is the Committee stage of the Finance Bill? Only this week we had a debate on education, in which it was not possible for one voice from the North to be heard from this side of the House.
Mr Arthur Tiley: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that when the Opposition were in charge of pensions they could not provide increases for the future, never mind about back-dating them?
Mr Arthur Tiley: I know that the hon. Gentleman has a deep knowledge of these matters, but, in comparing teachers' salaries with those in industry, it is fair to point out the wonderful pension arrangements which are applicable to the teachers and which, I believe, at the moment are running at a deficit of about £250 million, all of which will be made up by the taxpayers. It is right that we should bear...
Mr Arthur Tiley: As we are to discuss school building next Thursday, which is an important topic at present, on which almost every hon. Member will want to speak, is it possible for the debate to be extended at least by one hour?
Mr Arthur Tiley: Would it be a good idea to put it on the Loch Ness monster?
Mr Arthur Tiley: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that when he came here twelve years ago the Government of the day, his own Government, ignored all these things?
Mr Arthur Tiley: A fringe benefit.
Mr Arthur Tiley: I shall be brief. I shall not go over the ground which has been so well covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Mr. Hirst). My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, North (Sir W. Taylor) and I have a constituency interest in the matter. The point made by the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Bence) about ordinary people being involved even in the case of institutions applies...
Mr Arthur Tiley: As my hon. Friend says, there should be fair shares for all. It is not possible for business companies to insure against these losses. One may insure against a bad debt by insolvency or in the operation in the actual sale of a commodity by a foreign government, but one cannot insure through the Export Credits Guarantee Department or the private market on assets in another country. This...
Mr Arthur Tiley: If the hon. and learned Member is using that argument, he must surely bring into account the whole of the profits and the benefit which this island people have had from the adventurers in trade who have gone out from these shores for centuries.
Mr Arthur Tiley: Mr. Tiley rose——
Mr Arthur Tiley: Mr. Tiley rose——
Mr Arthur Tiley: Is not most of it tucked away in "Daltons"?
