Mr Arthur Tiley: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. D. Jones) on this important subject. I wish, first, to clear up two points which the hon. Gentleman made, because until he began his speech this was a notable occasion. The House was settling down to discuss pensions without passion. I do not intend, I hope, to arouse passions on this subject, because it is so very rare that we discuss...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I would say to the hon. Gentleman that I have never been on safari, I have never fished, except for tiddlers, and I have never been shooting or hunting. I should never be regarded as a member of the Establishment, if there be one. Indeed, if there be one it was wrong when it advised Canute and it has been wrong ever since. If the hon. Gentleman is asserting—I hope that he is not—that on...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I accept that. I now come to the next point made by the hon. Gentleman. We must discuss it patiently. He said that during the last few months there has been a huge increase—I think he put it at 10 per cent.— in the number of retirement pensioners receiving National Assistance benefit. That is true, and it is obviously due to the Government's legislation last year when, for the first time...
Mr Arthur Tiley: The hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that I wish that I had nothing else to do for the rest of my life but compete in the open market with the Socialists' national superannuation. I will later give an example of that, because it is incidental to the point which I wish to make. We are grateful on this side of the House to the hon. Gentleman the Member for St. Helens for introducing this...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I will tell the hon. Gentleman why I shall not support the Motion. In the first place, I do not agree that a large number of the people now in retirement are suffering severe hardship. I agree that there is hardship, but there is not severe hardship for a large number. The number of old-age pensioners is growing because they are living longer and leading healthier lives in their last years....
Mr Arthur Tiley: If it were true that our old people live neglected, miserable, lonely lives, and if they were living in squalor, my generation would be to blame. Our parents brought us up in days of difficulty during two wars, and during the dole period in the 1930s, without children's allowances, and if we did not do something for them we should be usurping all that they have prepared for us without looking...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I am afraid that we might, at the wrong time, take a step forward which sends us two steps backwards. Past history regarding pensions is full of such happenings. It is essential that we should not affect the spending value of the £, because When that falls we cannot recover it.
Mr Arthur Tiley: The hon. Member and many of his hon. Friends who represent Scottish constituencies rightly assail Ministers on the question of unemployment figures in Scotland. But during the last two years, with a steady economy and correct balance of payments, with purchasing power remaining steady, and with the solidity of the £. assured at home and abroad, we have suffered less from unemployment than...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not continue to attempt to interrupt me. It is nearly half-past-two and I am anxious to make other important points before I sit down. The hon. Member knows that normally I do not mind interventions. We have known each other for five years and it will probably be another thirty years before we see the end of each other. As a matter of fact, I cannot become...
Mr Arthur Tiley: It is important that the amount of the pension we wish to see should be considered. During the last General Election the first question which I was asked at the first meeting which I held in my constituency was put by a pensioner. He asked me to say, "Yes" or "No"—with no messing about— whether I was in favour of a pension of £4 a week each for a husband and wife, a total of £8. I...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I hope that soon it will be possible for us to fulfil that pledge to the pensioners, to all of them.
Mr Arthur Tiley: I hope that at that time we shall make it clear that in future Government policy will place emphasis where it is most needed. I have shown that the National Assistance Board will be required for the next thirty or forty years. At the end of that time, personal savings, graduated pensions and private schemes will remove the need for the Board in the matter of pensions, but it would be a...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I am glad to follow the hon. Member for Stepney (Mr. W. Edwards) in welcoming the Bill. I do not wish to make a long speech. I will make only a short intervention in view of my interest in the House in pensions and because of the declaration which I have made so many times from these benches of my interest in pensions and insurance. I would not wish this occasion to pass without saying how...
Mr Arthur Tiley: I accept that completely because the hon. Member has a much wider knowledge of this industry than I have, but perhaps he will allow me to say that in other industries great encouragement for these schemes has come from the employers. I am glad that the principle of the payment of a lump sum on retirement has been established in the scheme. If there is one omission from the Socialist national...
Mr Arthur Tiley: If the hon. Member had been in attendance throughout the whole of the proceedings—
Mr Arthur Tiley: Let me reply. I do not mind the interruption, but if the hon. Member had been with us all the time, he would have heard my right hon. Friend give the details of the scheme.
Mr Arthur Tiley: Every hon. Member present knows where the £100 is coming from. It is not coming from Littlewoods, Vernons, or Premium Bonds. My right hon. Friend explained it at the beginning of the debate and if the hon. Member for Thurrock (Mr. Delargy) reads HANSARD tomorrow he will find that that intervention was not necessary. I am very glad that the scheme is being launched and that my right hon....
Mr Arthur Tiley: It is very interesting to follow the figures, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that on the same wage of £12 a week the total contribution under the Socialist National Superannuation scheme was 24s. a week, not 20s. 4d. as in the Government scheme, and that even after forty-five years of membership of that scheme the pension would be £6.
Mr Arthur Tiley: Might I interrupt my hon. and gallant Friend?
Mr Arthur Tiley: I am forced to listen to my hon. and gallant Friend. I cannot do otherwise. I wondered whether he would tell us which eye he has on the local Press.
