Shaun Spiers, Ravi Gurumurthy and Marc Hedin gave evidence.

We will now hear oral evidence from our third panel. We have Shaun Spiers, executive director of Green Alliance, Ravi Gurumurthy, chief executive officer of Nesta, and Marc Hedin, head of UK and Ireland research at Aurora Energy Research. We have until 11 am for this session. Could the witnesses please introduce themselves for the record?

Shaun Spiers:

I am Shaun Spiers, executive director of Green Alliance, a think-tank and charity committed to environmental leadership.

Marc Hedin:

I am Marc Hedin, head of research for UK and Ireland at Aurora Energy Research. We are a power market analytics company.

Ravi Gurumurthy:

I am Ravi Gurumurthy. I am the CEO of Nesta and the behavioural insights team. Nesta designs, tests and scales solutions to big societal problems, including sustainability.

Q Thank you all for coming in. Could you tell us a bit more about how GB Energy might benefit from or support the ecosystem of innovation and research we have? We know the Bill is limited; we have had that discussion. I am interested in your thoughts on how what is in the Bill might stimulate the innovation and research that the three of you represent.

Marc Hedin:

I think we can reflect a little bit on the role of Great British Energy here. One of the areas for innovation is around investments in less mature technologies. It is one of the roles that was highlighted in the founding statement, published in July earlier this year. There is a role for that, but I would argue that there is also a possibility for dedicated schemes to deploy capital in less mature technologies. For instance, with regards to long-duration energy storage, we had a consultation earlier this year, generally welcomed by the industry, which looked into implementing a sort of capital flow regime to promote investment into long-duration energy storage. There is a role for GB Energy here, but there are also alternative routes that are potentially less capital-intensive.

The second aspect, touched on earlier, is around supply chain. There is huge scope here for Great British Energy, where, out of all its potential roles, it may provide the best value for money. In GB, the domestic supply chain has not generally benefited that much from the high level of renewable build-out that we have seen in the past decade or so. There is a role for providing visibility to the supply chain, and implementing innovation into the supply chain more generally in the energy sector.

Ravi Gurumurthy:

If you think about different barriers to innovation, I think three stand out. One is co-ordination challenges; second is the provision of certain public goods, such as ports infrastructure, which are critical to investment; and third is risk appetite. I think GB Energy can potentially address all those in different ways.

On the risk side, co-investing—particularly in the novel technologies that Marc mentioned—can accelerate that innovation. Secondly, on things such as ports infrastructure, having a body that is trying to do whatever it takes to solve some of the co-ordination issues and the dependencies on public inputs can drive that innovation.

One other thing I would mention is that Government have a role, and have increasingly played a more co-ordinated role, in driving directed R&D through the net zero panel. I think Government can be better at that, if they are more informed, and one of the things I think GB Energy will do is to give a stronger insight into the constraints and opportunities in the market, and therefore potentially inform Government’s ability to drive innovation in a smarter way.

Shaun Spiers:

I obviously agree with all that. The really difficult thing about clean power by 2030 is the last 10% or 20%. It is clear that the market on its own, at the moment, will not provide that, and just adding renewables and grid will not provide it. What GB Energy provides is the potential to invest in things like pump hydropower, compressed air and new technologies that we are going to need. That is going to be essential to achieving the 2030 power decarbonisation.

Q My question is primarily to the Green Alliance. Shaun, what difference will GB Energy make to your analysis of the UK’s progress to date to decarbonise power generation?

Shaun Spiers:

It is really quite hard to see how the UK will be able to decarbonise power generation, certainly by 2030. By 2035 was really ambitious and by 2030 is even more ambitious, so you do need a vehicle of this sort to crowd in investment and to give a really clear sense of direction to overseas investors and other investors who are looking for places to put their money. This gives a huge impetus to that mission. It is easy to set targets, but unless you have a vehicle to deliver them, they are going to be impossible to achieve. GB Energy is the key vehicle. I would say it is essential.

Ravi Gurumurthy:

Nesta and Baringa co-authored a report that I was part of, which included some of the time and cost savings that we think GB Energy can deliver—for instance, the role of GB Energy as what we call the pre-developer, where the Crown Estate takes on this role of basically preparing the sites, doing the planning consents, doing the grid connection and doing the environmental surveys before having potentially a single auction process rather than the current dual auction process. We thought that would reduce the time of getting offshore wind built by two to four years. We also produced some cost savings from doing that, including some reduction in rents. We think this institution can deliver genuine improvements in terms of time and cost.

I would not just stop at the vantage point of 2030, because although I think this will make some impact on 2030, remember that we have to double electricity capacity in this country if we are going to electrify heating and transport, so the 10 years beyond 2030 are just as important. I think GB Energy is an institution for the long term, not just for the next five years.

I am being reminded again that we should focus on what is in the Bill; I know we can extrapolate what might happen. Next we go to Olivia Blake.

Q I have a question about the fact that this is a public company, and it is really important that it is accountable to the public. Do you think that the Bill has sufficient detail about that accountability against its objectives and effectiveness?

Shaun Spiers:

We have concerns about the huge powers given to the Secretary of State in the Bill. Clause 5(2) says:

“The Secretary of State may revise or replace the statement.”

A subsequent Secretary of State could significantly revise the aims of GB Energy. We think that the statement should be consulted on. We would propose an addition or amendment to say that the Secretary of State must consult anybody likely to be affected by the statement, or such bodies as considered appropriate by the Secretary of State— something like that, just to say that there should be more scrutiny so that the Secretary of State cannot simply change the aims of GB Energy in the way it is currently set out.

Ravi Gurumurthy:

I run an innovation organisation, and the hallmark of good innovation, or of good companies, is that they pivot and adapt. I know that it is sometimes challenging to set up an institution like GB Energy and not lock down all the parameters, but actually that is critical. There are issues and barriers that we do not even know yet, and I think it is important that this organisation can do whatever it takes to achieve the mission, even if we cannot right now identify exactly every single aspect of its role.

Marc Hedin:

I would echo that message that the role of Great British Energy is very broad and is being defined as we speak. That is what we in this room, but also the people working for Great British Energy, are doing at the moment. It could also change in the future as the challenges of energy administration evolve. I therefore think it makes sense for the Bill to provide present and future flexibility in scope.

That being said, there are two points or questions that should potentially be answered. First, what are the governance arrangements to ensure that Great British Energy carries out its duties and focuses on its remit? Part of the answer could be that it should be ensured that Great British Energy provides additionality and works with stakeholders, which is what Shaun Spiers mentioned. Secondly, since Great British Energy’s role is primarily to fill gaps in the market, it would be useful to assess its effectiveness there. Clause 7 only mentions an annual rendition of financial accounts, and there is no mention of effectiveness or impact. Reflecting on the possible roles of Great British Energy, some, such as speeding up project delivery, will lead to value added for the whole system but not necessarily additional revenues for Great British Energy. Financial accounts may only tell part of the story, and there is a need for more comprehensive reporting, in my view.

Shaun Spiers:

If I may, just quickly: to require consultation on the strategic priorities if they are going to change radically should not be too onerous.

Q My question was exactly on that point. Thank you all for coming here to present your evidence.

Can you explain a little more your concerns? First, given that innovation needs to pivot, but also given that we are being asked to allow for the objects to be so broad to allow for flexibility within them, Shaun, can you explain a little more why you think there should be consultation on such broad objects? Secondly, can you discuss any concerns you may have around environmental requirements for what GB Energy is going to do? That is also absent at the moment from the objects of the Bill.

Shaun Spiers:

On the concern about the ability of subsequent Secretaries of State simply to change the strategic direction of the organisation, you can look at recent history to know that there can be radical changes. It does not seem to me to be too demanding; it is just good governance to suggest that that should be consulted on, and that you do not give absolute powers to a Secretary of State to do that. I do not see that as a particular constraint on innovation; I just think of that as good governance.

The Chair is keen that we do not lever in lots of other things on the Bill, but there is a concern. Clearly, 2030 power decarbonisation is an imperative and we need to achieve net zero, but we also have a nature crisis and there are concerns about whether GB Energy will seek to enhance nature or whether nature will take second place. Both the Secretary of State and Chris Stark, the head of mission control, have emphasised that there will be a role for considerations of nature in energy planning. But, again, that is not in the Bill, and it would be nice to see it there or to see some statement to that effect from the Dispatch Box to ensure that it is central to how GB Energy will behave. There are lots of public companies that do not prioritise nature—they prioritise bills or the delivery of their main objective—and we see the consequence of that, for instance, in the water industry.

Q This is a follow-up for Ravi Gurumurthy, on the theme of autonomy and flexibility for GBE. For this to be a success, there needs to be some appetite for risk taken by GBE. Historically, Government agencies have not been known for being particularly free to do that. The Bill intends to provide a degree of flexibility for GBE to operate and respond with autonomy and pace. Given the work that Nesta has done in this space, Ravi, can you say a little more about what gives you the confidence that the Bill sets that up in the right way?

Ravi Gurumurthy:

It is a very challenging question. As you know, good intentions in this area often do not translate. You can mandate and say you want to operate with risk appetite, but it does not really translate into behaviour. What do I think are some of the components? The capitalisation of GB Energy is really important, because that gives it some degree of resource to take risks. I am quite interested in whether, as well as investing in novel technologies with a high-risk appetite, GB Energy can either take cashless equity stakes or invest in more established technologies, because if you have a more balanced portfolio, it might give you the ability to take risks in some aspects.

That gets you into a conversation about the fiscal rules. The one thing I would say about this area is that if you compare offshore wind and other established energy technologies with roads or hospitals, the big difference in my mind is that for offshore wind we will build those wind farms whether the state invests or not, and we will pay as consumers, whereas roads and hospitals will not get built if the state does not. The point is that we are going to pay for it, and we will pay more through private sector borrowing than we will through the state.

The second big difference is that unlike a road or a hospital, there was a guaranteed revenue stream through a contract for difference, so there is a really good rationale for why we should not have fiscal rules that bias us towards 100% private sector borrowing, rather than the state either taking a cashless equity stake via this development process or actually investing. If you do that, it will give GB Energy the ability to then take risks on the much more novel aspects of the portfolio and have failures. If GB Energy does not have failures, it will not be doing its job.

Q We have heard a lot about public investment and the importance of private investment for meeting net zero. Is there anything in the Bill that encourages you that the amount of public investment going in will attract the amount of private investment that is needed? We have to take this Bill in the round with other energy policies coming forward. How does it sit alongside those in ensuring that we continue to attract private investment into the energy sector?

Marc Hedin:

I may be playing devil’s advocate here, but there is a slight risk if a public company were to invest in a utility scale project. At the moment in GB, we manage to attract quite a lot of capital to deploy renewable projects, for instance. There is also a risk of perceived unfair competition that would be detrimental to future capital attractiveness, so I would add that to the global reflection around this topic.

Ravi Gurumurthy:

To come in on that, it is very common in other countries for the state to co-invest. I have spoken to a lot of other organisations, and we need to attract £350 billion to £500 billion of capital into power generation in the next 10 years. I think it is perfectly possible for the state to play a role in that. Everything that GB Energy is trying to do is to reduce the risk and increase the predictability of the investment environment. If you take the developer role, at the moment the private sector, when it bids in for a seabed lease, has to have the uncertainty of whether that project will ever get commissioned and the long delay in planning and consenting, grid connection and environmental surveys. If we can actually have the state do some of that and de-risk it, I think it is more likely to get that private sector investment. That is what happens in the Netherlands and it is what the Danes are moving towards, and it is also partly what happens in Germany. There is a good track record of these sorts of environments working well to attract private sector investment.

Shaun Spiers:

That is right. You cannot dictate the culture of a company in a Bill. There was a criticism of the Green Investment Bank, for instance, that it invested in rather established technologies and had an insufficiently high appetite for risk. It will be important that GB Energy does pump-prime private investment and not replace it.

Q You anticipated my question. To pivot back, Ravi, you talked about innovation, and you talked, Shaun, about closing that 20% towards net zero. What can this Bill and GB Energy do to drive that private sector investment?

Shaun Spiers:

Ravi has written the report on it.

Ravi Gurumurthy:

Your question is: what can it do to drive private sector investment?

Yes, what can the Bill and GB Energy itself do?

Ravi Gurumurthy:

I have already articulated what it can do on the development side to get rid of some of the risks to do with planning, consenting, grid connection and so on. On the more novel technologies—small modular reactors, floating wind, tidal range and so on—I think we have also talked about how if the state is co-investing in some way, it signals a degree of commitment and insulates companies slightly from the risks. In both the investor and developer roles, GB Energy can play a role in accelerating things. The biggest way in which the state can de-risk investment and increase private sector contribution is through the National Energy System Operator, providing a clear, strategic plan and forward visibility of what is happening in terms of technology and location. That is how I think we will get the investment—not just in the assets, but in the supply chain as well.

Shaun Spiers:

On clean, flexible power, what Green Alliance has proposed is a sort of vaccine taskforce-style operation to crowd in all potential technologies for this. It is not clear who would fund it, if GB Energy did not. That is a really important part of 2030 power decarbonisation. There is also the local power plan. The previous Government had a plan—I think it was in 2014—to power 1 million homes by community energy, which was abandoned four years later with about 67,000 homes powered. There is a clear remit here for making community energy economically viable and getting local investment in community energy.

Q I want to come back to what Shaun said a little earlier about the slight risk of the great power that the Secretary of State has. Do you think that there should be some protection in the Bill for communities, so that they can have a say? We also know that quite a lot of the delivery of our new transition infrastructure might be delayed because communities are not entirely certain, for instance. Is there a risk, and should there be something in the Bill that protects communities, so that they can be confident they are part of the transition and are being listened to?

Shaun Spiers:

I think a nature recovery or nature protection duty in the Bill would be helpful in reassuring communities. The investment in community energy, where people really have a stake in the energy, will take some of the sting out of the opposition to renewables, but I would not overload the Bill with things that are better dealt with in the planning system. This is a Bill to enable a lot of investment in achieving a decarbonised power system and long-term energy security. To try to overload it with things that are best dealt with in other parts of government, or other legislation, would be a mistake.

So the Bill is sufficient in protecting communities?

Shaun Spiers:

I would like to see a nature recovery duty in the Bill.

Q Welcome to the participants. My question follows on beautifully from Shaun’s comments around community. How do we think that GB Energy can accelerate and drive investment in the development of community enterprise and community energy?

Shaun Spiers:

One thing that is necessary to say is that this is a major part of the transition and a priority of the Government. That was the case for periods during the coalition, when there was a really vibrant community energy movement and a sense in which people were coming around to supporting renewable energy—which otherwise they would have opposed—because they could see they had a financial stake in it but had also been engaged in developing it. What snuffed that out had more to do with planning issues than with investment, but there are ways in which GB Energy can pump-prime some of the investment.

I am trying to think back to the community energy manifesto we put together in 2018. I cannot think of any specific things, but I can write to the Committee, if that is helpful. There are specific financial incentives that would help get this off the ground. To be honest, though, communities across the country were really keen on community energy. It was a vibrant movement and could be again, with the right political framework as much as investment.

Q Thank you, panel. We have been hearing a lot today about the mission to make the UK a clean energy superpower, moving away from fossil fuels. I want to touch on something that Shaun, Marc and Ravi have all mentioned, about leadership, ambition and innovation. In your view, does the Bill give investors increased confidence to invest in the UK in the energy sector?

Ravi Gurumurthy:

You have to think about this as a whole package. If you have absolute clarity and conviction around the 2030 decarbonisation target and the pathway beyond that, and if you translate that intent into a strategic plan—with clarity about the technologies and their location through the NESO—and if you then have an enabling, activating agency like GB Energy clearing away some of the barriers, then the combination of that overall ambition, that plan and GB Energy does I think hugely accelerate investments into the sector. But you have got to do all three.

Marc Hedin:

I think that is right. I think there are two key components here. One is identifying gaps in the market, where Great British Energy can provide a lot of value and can reinforce confidence from investors, and thinking hard about where it makes sense for Great British Energy to invest. We have mentioned points like local power plans, innovative technologies. I think there is a range of areas in which it makes a lot of sense for the state to co-invest through Great British Energy to develop those industries. The last point is around supply chain, to really support the whole energy transition.

Shaun Spiers:

I agree with that. This is a part of a bigger picture. We keep coming back to the scope of the Bill. The Bill, in its objects, talks about

“measures for ensuring the security of supply of energy”

One area that really has not been given sufficient attention is critical raw materials, where we import 100% and then we export 100% for recycling elsewhere. There are 37 lithium recycling factories in the EU but none in the UK. This is the sort of industry that Great British Energy could help pump-prime, if that is seen as within its scope.

Q Again, you have spoken very eloquently about the opportunities that may or may not exist under GB Energy, particularly with regard to the risk appetite that needs to be there. You have perhaps delved into some areas in relation to planning and Crown Estate; where they sit within the devolved competency of the Scottish Parliament. I will not ask you to comment on that because that would be deeply unfair, but what you and others have done is delve into the strategic priorities and what you think they could be. Do you think it is helpful or unhelpful that at this juncture we do not have a full understanding of what those strategic priorities are, given that the Bill is going through in its current form?

Shaun Spiers:

I think the more that can be done to set out the strategic priorities, the better. I do not think it necessarily needs to be in the Bill. The explanatory statement and the introductions and so on I think do give a reasonably good steer on what the strategic priorities are, but obviously this body is being set up at pace. The more clarity there is on what it is going to do, the better. I would not set unreasonable expectations of a body that is being set up really quickly, with a pretty clear short-term aim of 2030 power decarbonisation and of supporting that. However, in the longer term the priorities clearly need to be set out.

Ravi Gurumurthy:

The NESO will be producing its plan in October, and you have then got the next carbon budget in February, so the actual pathway to 2030 and to 2050 will start to become even clearer in the coming months. It will need to be flexible, however. There will be technologies which emerge that shift our sense of what to focus on. You need priorities, but you do need quite a lot of flexibility in this system.

Marc Hedin:

I made the point, I think, at the very beginning that we need a very flexible scope because there will be challenges to the energy transition. We need room to adapt. If this vehicle is to facilitate the energy transition, we need that scope to be relatively broad. I did mention a couple of safeguards, more like accountability, and I think that is still reasonable to ask. However, in terms of strategic priorities, I think the scope is broad enough and makes sense.

Q As a proud Cornishman, I am very excited about the reopening of our tin mines and our lithium mines. I was very pleased to hear you mention critical minerals. Can you elaborate a little on how you think GB Energy can support the UK’s domestic critical minerals industry?

Shaun Spiers:

By investing in it. It is more a question of the recycling, because there is a big recycling industry elsewhere. When the UK was the pioneer in offshore wind, it was easy to import critical raw materials and then not bother about reusing them and just import more. As the Foreign Secretary was talking about in his speech at Kew, there are now real concerns about the shortage of critical raw materials across the world. Because they are needed for so many technologies, and so many technologies that are essential to the transition, we need a plan for the transition that includes recycling plants. Lithium mining in Cornwall is great, but we also need not be exporting our critical raw materials to be repurposed elsewhere, and then reimporting the repurposed ones. There are 37 recycling plants in the EU, while in China there were 61 waste lithium battery recycling and processing companies two years ago, and it is a growing industry. It has not grown in the UK, it has not had attention, and I think that if GB Energy is committed to long-term energy security, which it is, then it could play a part in getting that industry going in the UK.

We are straying quite far from the scope of the Bill. It is an interesting discussion, and it could carry on offline afterwards, but it is not within the scope of this Bill. Are there any more questions? If there are no further questions from Committee members, I thank the witnesses for their evidence.