Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The clause seeks to amend the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. To help to develop this policy, we spoke to both children and employers. The changes in the clause are the ones that they told us they would like to see. The clause will require all children in England to have an employment permit in order to undertake suitable employment. The permit will make local authorities aware of the children working in their area. It will ensure that children are safeguarded as they undertake valuable employment, while still having access to their education.

The measure will give more flexibility to children and employers in relation to when children can work, which will give children more opportunities to take up suitable employment while still ensuring that their health, development and education outcomes are supported. Allowing children to work additional hours on a Sunday, and before and after school, will help them to benefit from additional suitable employment opportunities. Employment can contribute to a child’s development, introduce them to the world of work and develop key employability skills.

The clause will also replace a power for local authorities to make byelaws in relation to child employment with a power for the Secretary of State to make regulations in relation to the employment of children in England. Having a single set of regulations that apply to all children who work in England, rather than each local authority having its own byelaws, will ensure fairness in outcomes for all children in England.

Our changes will also make it easier for children and their parents to understand what roles they can undertake, and for employers to know on what basis they can employ a child. They also mean that as types of work change, we will be able to restrict new types of employment that are not suitable for children more quickly. Additionally, we will be able to make previously restricted employments available for children, should changes in the way that they are carried out make them suitable. That will ensure that the legislation stays current.

I hope the Committee agrees that the clause should stand part of the Bill.

As the Minister says, the clause essentially centralises and harmonises differences in rules on children’s employment, which are currently set partly at the local level. As a localist, I start with a small degree of nervousness, in so far as we are taking away a local authority power. We have done that an awful lot over the last 40 years.

I do not have a great objection to this measure, because in general it is a liberalisation overall. The notes provided by the Library are quite good, in so far as they talk about the extensions in different ways that this will bring about in most local authorities. I do have one slight nervousness, though, from a practical rather than a philosophical point of view. When we replace a complicated patchwork quilt and a lot of variation with a single national rule, we must check that every place is clear about the impact. To pick a random example used in the Library briefing, the byelaws of Birmingham city council do not include the line allowing 13-year-olds to work on car washing by hand in a private residential setting that is present in Richmond upon Thames and in the model byelaws.

I do not know whether the Government have a spreadsheet or an assessment somewhere detailing the current differences between the laws in all the different places. I hope that they do, because although in general it sounds like we are harmonising all these things across the country in a way that is liberalising, by having more times when young people and children can work, in some cases there might be a restriction, and it would not be a small thing for anyone caught by that restriction to be found breaking the law on the employment of children.

Although ignorance of the law is no defence, one might feel that it perhaps should be where people have been happily working away on the basis of their local authority’s byelaws for some time, when suddenly, without them clocking it—because they do not read Hansard every day—the law changes and they can no longer do what they were doing before. Those people could easily be caught out, as the rules change and we move from a patchwork quilt to a single national standard.

As I say, I have some philosophical questions about the loss of local authority autonomy. However, because the direction of travel overall seems to be more liberalising than not, I do not think that we will oppose the clause, although I would ask the Minister to commit to producing that assessment of what the rules are now, compared with what they will be, which might be a sensible thing to do purely from the point of view of any legal challenge.

The Minister might stand up and say, “We’ve already done that—obviously,” but if that has not happened already, will she commit to doing it, so that we are super-clear for individual local authorities about how the rules will be changing? Such a document or spreadsheet would be of benefit not just to those of us discussing these things nationally, but to the local authorities—the laws are changing in their areas—and to the actual employers of young people, so that they are not caught out by some of the changes and, indeed, are potentially alerted to the new opportunities that the more liberalising aspects of the clause will bring about.

It is a good thing for young people to be in employment at an early age—some of the best jobs I have ever had were when I was a young person working on a farm. That was an absolutely fantastic experience. We want young people to be able to get on with their lives, not to be held back. We are generally supportive of the liberalising aspects of the clause, but we have that nagging doubt.

We strongly encourage the Minister to do that work—indeed, we hope she will commit to doing it—on how the move from a patchwork quilt to a single set of national rules will affect each local authority, so that someone has done the work, not least for the legal protection of the Minister herself, but for the legal protection of those on the ground who will be affected.

I am not at all opposed to the clause, but I am curious to know what prompted it. What outside world events made us rethink the regulations? I heard what the Minister said about consulting young people, but I am struggling slightly to picture that conversation, where the kid goes, “You know, what we really need is a change in the employer licensing regulations.” But fair enough.

The changes are in some ways liberalising by increasing the latest hour from 7 o’clock to 8 and allowing Sunday working, but in other ways they are restricting. I am interested in what is behind that. There are risks to guard against in the employment of children, but the employment of children is not in itself an ill to be mitigated. There are many benefits to the child in having that opportunity. In fact, the biggest gripe we hear from employers about young people—it happens again and again—is about what some call soft skills, or employability skills or workplace skills. Whatever we want to call it, those are skills that people develop at work. Many times over the years, whenever I have had a group of leaders and industry together, I have gone round the room and literally asked, “How old were you when you first did a day of paid work?” The most typical, most common answer is 14—some say 15, and for some it is younger. It is important that we learn from that.

In the last 25 years, there has been a sharp decline in the number of under-16s and under-18s doing paid work. That is partly because of the decline in certain job types—there are not many paper rounds or milk rounds any more—and partly because of social attitudes. When we had public exams in the lower sixth and upper sixth for most children, that probably had an impact for the slightly older age groups. One of the reasons that employers find it daunting to employ children is that they are often unclear about what the regulations are, but they have a sense that there are risks, including reputational risks and so on.

The explanatory notes state:

“The Secretary of State will have a power to make regulations in relation to child employment which will replace the power local authorities currently have to make bylaws. The regulations may prohibit the employment of a child in certain types of work, make provision in relation to child employment permits, authorise the employment of 13-year-old children and set out the number of hours children can work per day or week, their entitlement to breaks and leave and to specify other conditions of employment”.

It is quite a list.

Today, to be clear, children can work part time from the age of 14. In some council areas, the minimum is 13. Are the Government now saying that the minimum age will become 13 throughout the country? What limits do they envisage in ordinary times for additional regulation? There is rightly already plenty of regulation about the employment of anybody and further regulation about the employment of people who are below 18. What additional regulation do the Government envisage?

The Government will say that there will be secondary legislation under the affirmative procedure and that it will all be fine, but we know how secondary legislation works—often in this very room—under the affirmative procedure. Often people do not know about it very far in advance. A Committee of Members of Parliament comes here and debates the secondary legislation—I was going to say that the MPs vote on it, but often they do not—the legislation cannot be amended, and then it moves on. Given that we are talking about the primary legislation, it would be helpful to get on the record what the Government are thinking about doing in this area.

As my hon. Friend the shadow Minister rightly said, having a standardised system of permits nationally is okay in principle. Indeed, benefits may well come from that, but it goes somewhat against the direction of travel from a Government who are introducing devolution in local government and changing the levels at which responsibility is held. The danger with a national system for something like this is that we could lose some of that local knowledge and variability, for example, in rural areas of the country with heavy agricultural sectors. Employment can be different there. In seaside towns with more seasonal employment, that might affect the employment of children. Can the Minister give us some reassurance that there will not be scope creep, for example through the introduction of further regulations for the employment of children in the family business or activities such as babysitting? Can she also assure us that the minimum age exemptions with a performance licence for the creative industries—theatre, film and television—will not be lost?

I do not have a philosophical problem with this clause either. I was slightly surprised to find it when I was reading the Bill and to hear where it came from, but I understand what the Government are attempting to do.

Before press releases start going out suggesting that the Lib Dems want to promote child labour, I will preface my next question with some feedback from the National Network for Children in Employment and Entertainment. It has raised some concerns that the later hour set out in the legislation does not fully address the employment of young people in televised and live sporting events. That is particularly the case where we now have the benefit of floodlights and roofs—I think of the late matches on centre court at Wimbledon, when we have ball boys and ball girls from the local area working there. I understand that there is a different licensing regime if children are participating in sport, but this measure would apply to some of the children working at those sporting events. What consideration have Ministers given to those sorts of situations? Have they spoken to the National Network for Children in Employment and Entertainment?

For organisations with particular shift and working patterns—for example, those involving non-performance roles in theatres, including in lighting or backstage—the National Network for Children in Employment and Entertainment suggests allowing hours later than 8 pm on a Friday or Saturday for older teenagers, provided that the next day is not a school day. I am not necessarily suggesting that that is the right thing to do, but that is a suggestion made by that organisation given its needs. It would be good to get some clarification on when the current byelaws for child employment will cease and when regulations from the Secretary of State will replace them.

Importantly, what consideration has been given to safeguarding and DBS checks of employers where young people are working? The right hon. Member for East Hampshire touched on that. We have self-employed young people offering their services as tutors, babysitters and gardeners. I understand that some of them are offering their services through apps and things nowadays, and they are presumably not touched by these regulations, so what consideration have Ministers given to children in those sorts of services?

Considering the level of agreement on this provision, there is a significant amount of interest and questions around it. It might help if I clarify that currently a child can work for a maximum of only two hours on a Sunday and up to 7 pm at night, which restricts employment opportunities. It may not make business sense to employ a child who is able to work only a very short shift. We spoke with children while developing this policy, and they were pretty universally of the view that they would like to have more flexibility in when they can work, not necessarily in the amount that they wish to work. Clause 20 will not change the overall number of hours that a child can work, but it will give children much greater flexibility to maximise the opportunities that hopefully will become available to them as this area becomes more clearly set out as part of the legislation.

Employers and sector bodies have set out the difficulties in being able to offer employment to a child either on a normal trading day or when they experience peak demand when the child has worked their requisite two hours. That often closes down opportunities that children could easily have had and would have enjoyed having. Businesses would appreciate having those children as part of their team, but the restrictions in the current arrangements often make that difficult to accommodate.

I have a question about babysitters, which are one of the hardest cases here. This question is as much about the existing law as it is about the proposed change in the cut-off from 7 pm to 8 pm. Are people who employ babysitters after 7 pm or 8 pm committing a criminal offence under the clause?

I do not believe that people register with their local authority to ask someone under the age of 16 who they know to babysit in their home. My understanding, therefore, is that these regulations would not apply in those circumstances.

To explain another issue that these measures are intended to fix, the vast majority of local authorities simply follow the byelaw model, so they are already in place. However, some local authorities have additional restrictions in their rules for employing children. That has led to some local authorities, which may be geographically located directly next door to each other, having different restrictions. For example, one local authority might decide to add a role to the restricted employment list, but the other might not. That leaves children, parents and businesses, which do not always operate within local authority boundaries, somewhat confused. As the right hon. Member for East Hampshire pointed out, that can put employers off employing children, even where it might be to the benefit of both that these opportunities are available.

Replacing the power for local authorities to make byelaws with the power for the Secretary of State to make these regulations will ensure fair outcomes for all children right across England. That means that a child, their parent or a business can know what work can be undertaken, and when and by whom, wherever they live in England. National employers will also hopefully be encouraged to employ children who are looking for these opportunities, as they will not be put off by inconsistencies around the country that create bureaucratic obstacles to opportunities. That will provide much-needed employment for businesses across the country. I hope that I have responded to the majority of concerns about this largely—I certainly get the impression—uncontested clause.

rose—

It would, however, appear that the shadow Minister has another query.

I thank the Minister for her patience. Will the Government undertake to have an authority-by-authority assessment of what the patchwork quilt looks like now? For everyone’s ease and benefit, what will the changes mean for those who are not just following the model byelaws, because they are maybe different in each different place? Is the Minister happy to at least go away and have a look at that?

As part of the work to create the draft legislation that we are debating, an assessment of local authorities was undertaken. That assessment has not changed the view that a more consistent approach across the country would be beneficial to children, employers and their families—indeed, it threw up the fact that the vast majority of local authorities do follow the current byelaw framework. This clause not only creates a nationally consistent approach; it creates a better and more flexible approach for children, which will hopefully unlock opportunity for them to take their first steps on the employment ladder.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 20 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Vicky Foxcroft.)

Adjourned till Thursday 30 January at half-past Eleven o’clock.

CWSB84 Camilla Wells

CWSB85 Poppy Coles

CWSB86 Jodie Coles

CWSB87 Sarah Osborne

CWSB88 Philippa Nicholson

CWSB89 Nikki O’Rourke

CWSB90 Kate Richards

CWSB91 Jen Cornell

CWSB92 Wendy Charles Warner

CWSB93 Philippa Clark

CWSB94 Nikki Hughes

CWSB95 An individual who wishes to remain anonymous

CWSB96 Georgina Stubbings

CWSB97 Emily Rose Gray

CWSB98 Jennifer Watts

CWSB99 Emma Ridley

CWSB100 Sarah Mansfield

CWSB101 Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH)

CWSB102 Erion Sovron

CWSB103 Deepa Naik

CWSB104 Stella De Luca

CWSB105 Julianne Chatfield

CWSB106 Sarah Willcox

CWSB107 An individual who wishes to remain anonymous

CWSB108 An individual who wishes to remain anonymous

CWSB109 Gabrielle Kelly

CWSB110 Holly Strawbridge

CWSB111 Charlotte White

CWSB112 Alexis Massey

CWSB113 John Tang

CWSB114 Dr Alice Porter (Senior Research Associate in Diet and Physical Activity, Bristol Biomedical Research Centre, University of Bristol)

CWSB115 MyBnk

CWSB116 Jonathan Pearce, owner of OZ Schoolwear LTD

CWSB117 Dr Harriet Pattison, School of Education, Liverpool Hope University

CWSB118 Sense

CWSB119 Dr Peter Appleton, Visiting Fellow, School of Health and Social Care, University of Essex

CWSB120 Polaris Community

CWSB121 National Secular Society (NSS)

CWSB122 School Food Matters

CWSB123 Bright Futures UK

CWSB124 WONDER Foundation

CWSB125 Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, NSPCC and Barnardo’s (joint submission)

CWSB126 NASS (National Association of Special Schools) (further submission)

CWSB127 Professor Andrew Rowland, University of Salford; Professor Felicity Gerry, University of Salford and Deakin University; Professor Daryl Higgins, Australian Catholic University; and Professor Sophie Havighurst, The University of Melbourne

CWSB128 Glenn Leech, CEO of Banner Ltd

CWSB129 Louise Renshaw, Director, Classworx Ltd

CWSB130 Spotlight, Agents of Young Performers Association (AYPA) and Keystone Law

CWSB131 National Governance Association (NGA)

CWSB132 Fatherhood Institute

CWSB133 David Hunt, Research Director, Aristotle Foundation for Public Policy; Brian Ray, PhD, President, National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI); and Kevin Boden, Esq., Attorney & International Director, Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA)

CWSB134 Whizz Kidz

CWSB135 Christian Legal Centre

CWSB136 The Steiner Academy Hereford

CWSB137 Alex Montegriffo, Community Organiser and Campaigns Manager at Devizes and District Foodbank

CWSB138 British Association of Social Workers (BASW) England

CWSB139 Parentkind

CWSB140 The Children’s Society (supplementary submission)

CWSB141 National Network for Child Employment and Entertainment (NNCEE)

CWSB142 Di Larfynn