Renters (Reform) Bill – in a Public Bill Committee am 11:44 am ar 16 Tachwedd 2023.
We will now hear oral evidence from Richard Miller, the head of justice at the Law Society, and Nimrod Ben-Cnaan, head of policy and profile at the Law Centres Network. We have until 12.30 pm for this panel. Could you both introduce yourselves for the record, please?
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
I feel I should give a slightly longer introduction, as the lesser party here. My name is Nimrod Ben-Cnaan. I am head of policy and profile at the Law Centres Network. The Law Centres Network is a charity; it is a membership body that represents law centres. A law centre, for those who do not know, is basically a law practice that is a charity: it gives free legal advice on social welfare legal matters. Our point of insertion into this debate is very much on the side of representing tenants across the country—we have 42 law centres doing so—and delivering one in five of the duty desks that are available through the legal aid scheme for possession proceedings.
Q Gentlemen, thank you for coming to give evidence. As you know, the Government have tied the enactment of chapter 1 of part 1 of the Bill to court improvements. The best sense we have of what they mean was set out in the response to the Levelling Up, Housing and Communities Committee, which covers four target areas: digitisation; prioritisation of certain cases; improving bailiff recruitment and retention; and providing early legal advice and better signposting. Is that your understanding of what court improvements might mean, or are there things outside the scope of that? How would we measure that? What could we put in the Bill so that we have some specific metrics by which we are able to judge when the abolition of section 21 will happen and when chapter 1 of part 1 of the Bill will come into force? How do we determine when court reform is sufficiently advanced?
That is as comprehensive a view of what they mean by reform as we have. We have concerns about this idea of putting digitisation ahead of implementation. To give an example, we can look back at the HM Courts and Tribunals Service programme and what happened in private family law. They announced the project to digitise that in August 2020; through 2021, there were various workshops and engagement with the professional and other users of the system to help them to design and build the system; and then there were roll-out plans. The original project was scheduled to finish at the end of December 2022, but it is still ongoing, and the roll-out has not yet been completed. So we are now more than three years down the line and still just about approaching the end of the roll-out of that project.
That is not to be critical of HMCTS. It is vital that it engages with users, understands what the functionality of the systems needs to be, and designs them robustly so that they deliver what will work. There are always teething problems when you roll out these systems, and inevitably it takes a long time. We would be very surprised if this could be done in less than two years.
The fundamental question that underpins all this is why you would design a build around the current processes in law when you are fundamentally changing them. We would all be guessing as to what functionality will be required in a new digitised system. There is a strong argument to say that it would be better to implement the new system before undertaking the digitisation, so that you understand what your digital platform actually needs to achieve. So there are some real concerns about whether we are getting the cart and the horse the wrong way round on that.
More broadly, there are some genuine concerns about the capacity of the system at the moment. We are seeing significant backlogs within the courts. An example was recently provided to us by a member of ours who was representing a landlord. The landlord had issued a section 21 notice and applied to the court for the possession order, but the court took so long to issue the proceedings that the possession order expired—the time limit came to an end. The court had to issue a new notice and fresh proceedings, but the same thing happened again. The administration within the courts is not coping even at the moment.
We expect that the provisions in this Bill will lead to a significant increase in the number of contested hearings, so there is substantial concern about the capacity of the system to handle the workload that will come with this change. There needs to be investment to increase capacity, and that also needs to extend to legal aid. Landlords’ solicitors, as much as tenants’ solicitors, have told us that they need tenants to be represented. Landlords do not want to be up against unrepresented parties in contested hearings: it is bad for the landlords, it is expensive for the landlords and it is expensive for the court, which has to put a lot more resources into dealing with litigants in person. There needs to be substantial investment in legal aid, as well as in the court system, if this change is going to work effectively.
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
I would agree with most of what has been said. As Richard has said, the court reform programme has been running since 2016, and we have known that possession reform was coming, even though it has now been delayed a little further than was expected. Using that now as an excuse to delay what is otherwise a long-promised measure—the repeal of section 21 and the like—feels unnecessary and misdirected. That is partly because, again, the pinch points are elsewhere and the kind of work that we could do to prevent cases from even getting to court, by expanding early legal advice through legal aid, is so much more significant. Frankly, rather than waiting at the cliff edge to help people showing up for their day in court, law centres would rather advise them at an earlier point to resolve disputes earlier and to talk people out of making a defence that will not do them any good. All of those things would substantially reduce the burden on the courts.
Q Just to be clear, do you agree with Mr Miller that we should introduce the new system and then look to improve the courts, or do you think that it would be fair to instead specify metrics for what we mean by improvement and then put a time period in place for it to happen?
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
Our opinion is that, as I think Polly Neate said on Tuesday, the Government should hold its nerve and not wait at all. We can do this without that. There will be a surge; there are other ways to address that surge. That is our opinion.
Q Thank you to both our witnesses. This question is specifically for Mr Miller. I am a little confused by your argument, because you seem to be suggesting that we should implement the changes to section 21 before court reform, but you then say that the courts are currently overwhelmed and that there would be more contested cases, therefore overwhelming the courts even further, if we were to abolish section 21 straight away. Could you clarify the points that you are making about that? What could we do to improve the court system today, before we bring in the changes to section 21?
Then, on Nimrod’s point about resolving cases before they even get to court, which I think is really relevant, I would be keen to know how you think the ombudsman could be used in such dispute resolution.
In response to the issue of digitisation, our view is that digitisation is one part of the picture only, and it is a part of the picture that will take a long time and involve quite a bit of investment. Fundamentally, the issue is that we do not know exactly what functionality will be required of the system until we have implemented the process.
Let us suppose that the digitisation programme did not exist. We would be saying, “As long as the courts have the resources to handle the cases, that is fine.” That is what we are saying should happen here: digitisation should be on the cards—it should be something that we intend to do over the coming years—but the starting point is to make sure that the courts are resourced to handle the cases as they are conducted at the moment. That does mean more judges, more court staff to process applications and more investment in legal aid, but the digitisation is not a necessary prerequisite to get the courts into a state where they can handle this workload.
Q Your point is specifically around digitisation, so it is not necessarily about court reform as a whole. Specifically on digitisation, do you think that we could do section 21 before that?
That’s right, yes. Digitisation is absolutely necessary. It is disappointing, but we understand the reasons why it has not happened already. It is a major project and we need to have the system that will be in place for the foreseeable future before we start building the digital systems to cope with that system.
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
On your point about the ombudsman, Minister, there is little to comment on in the Bill. The shape outlined in the Bill is just that: an outline of an idea that has been suggested by various parties. You have heard some of them in previous sessions, and that might be useful in their own terms. Our concern has always been that the ombudsman would be used to displace, specifically, tenants’ access to the courts when they need it, and through that to displace the provision of legal advice that would otherwise be available for them. We would like to ensure that tenants have a good, reliable source of information and advice about their rights, what they can act on, how they can act on it and the support to do so. On the ombudsman, well, let us see that idea get fleshed out in detail.
I was heartened to hear from the Department’s officials that the intention is not to have the ombudsman somehow displace access to courts, for example, with disrepair claims, which would be so important to us. The court still does, and can do very well, the kinds of things that the ombudsman cannot do at all—be that through things such as establishing fact, applying the law, interpreting the law and sometimes being able to issue injunctions when there is, for example, an unlawful eviction. A law centre would normally be able to step in and stop that right there and then, in a way that the ombudsman would not even have the power to do so. Actually, we have a lot going on with the courts at present, and we should resource them and resource the allied measures to make the most of them.
Could I just go back to the issue of advice and representation? You both made the point that there are strong arguments for tenants being represented. Will you tell us what those arguments are? In practical terms, what are the consequences at different levels—within the courts, and also going back to issues such as homelessness—of people not being represented and having advice? Can you give us an indication of how the level of service is spread out across the country? Are there particular places and areas where there are difficulties for tenants in getting representationQ ?
The Law Society has published a number of maps showing the availability of legally aided housing advice across the country. Those have shown, over time, that the picture is getting worse. The number of law firms and law centres delivering these services is reducing. We now have something like 42% of the population without a housing provider on legal aid in their local authority area. By definition, the sort of people we are talking about—those who are financially eligible for legal aid, where very often the issue is that they are unable to pay their rent—cannot afford public transport to travel significant distances to get the advice they need. Local provision of advice is vital.
The problem we have—there may well be many people around the table who are not experts in the legal aid system—is that the last time the remuneration rates for legal aid were increased in cash terms was in the 1990s. That is what the profession is up against, and that is why more and more firms have decided that it is not economically possible to carry on delivering these services. We are seeing an absolute crisis in the state of legal aid provision across the country, and that needs to be addressed. I will pass over to Nimrod to deal with the consequences of people not being represented.
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
Things have got so bad that even delivering the duty desk at court—the scheme that we are so reliant on to make possession work well for all parties—is difficult. In the last procurement round, the Legal Aid Agency had such problems sourcing providers in the greater Liverpool area—Merseyside, if you like—that there was a reliance on transitional arrangements. If you have a large urban centre where a legal aid firm should be able to make a sustainable business but is not able to do so, we have a real problem.
In terms of the kind of impact that legal aid services could offer us, I would say that the current scope of legal aid needs to be addressed, not just the remuneration. Ten years ago, in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, the scope cut to legal aid was such that a lot of early intervention to help people was taken out of scope, so you are basically incentivised to let problems escalate. It is the wrong way round, and even the Government are realising that in their current review of civil legal aid. If you get in early, you are able to divert people from the court wherever possible. You get to represent tenants wherever possible, lightening the load of the court, and you get to give assistance for as long as it is needed, rather than by adhering to whatever original parcels you were apportioned by legal aid. There is an opportunity here to make a secondary provision to legal aid that would help to prop up the system through this transition.
To build on that, some unrepresented tenants do not bring cases that they could and should bring and do not enforce their rights; others bring cases that are misconceived, and that has an impact on the landlord, who has to defend the misconceived case, and on the courts, which have to put in resources to hear it. When these cases go to court, whether they are validly brought or misconceived, unrepresented tenants very often do not understand the processes and what is required of them, so they do things wrong and have to have things explained to them. That means that the courts have to put a lot more resources into managing the case than they would if the tenant was represented, so there is a whole range of ways that landlords and courts—and therefore the taxpayer—are adversely impacted by tenants being unrepresented.
Q You mentioned the problem that 42% of the population cannot access a legal aid provider in their area, and we heard earlier from another witness that there is a shortage of courts in parts of rural Britain. You have just described Merseyside, and I am not sure there is an obvious geographical disparity there, but do you see a geographical disparity between rural and urban areas, or in specific parts of the country where it is much harder to obtain legal aid?
Certainly what we have seen in the data is that it was the rural areas that were the first to be impacted. We are now seeing a lot of market towns up and down the country where there is no provision, and the position in the cities is getting ever worse and ever tighter. It was definitely the rural areas that were the first impacted, but this is now a nationwide problem.
Q Do you think that both tenants and landlords are adversely impacted by that, or is it more the tenants or more the landlords?
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
Landlords are beyond my remit—I only represent the other side—but yes, tenants are very much impacted by it. This is something we see, anecdotally, in support of the quantitative evidence that the Law Society has generated. The closure and consolidation of the courts over the last 13 years has been so significant that whenever a court closes, the remaining possession lists in nearby courts get lengthened, so there is an added burden on the remaining courts.
Another big problem in possession cases is that tenants defending possession of their home just do not show up, because they have not been advised early, so they do not know if they should. It could possibly improve their prospects. There is a whole gap in the structure of support for renters that has been missing for several years, and it would be quite simple to replace. You would see the beneficial difference in the medium term.
Just to reflect on the position of landlords, for the reasons I have explained, landlords have a disadvantage where they are up against an unrepresented tenant. Some landlords are just individuals renting out properties on their own. They may also struggle to find accessible housing advice. They are not generally dependent on the legal aid system, so that aspect is not a problem for them. But some housing firms act for both tenants and landlords, so if they are closing down their housing departments, that may make it more difficult for some smaller landlords to get the advice that they need. The bigger and more commercial landlords will generally have solicitors that they are instructing all the time, so it is less of an issue for them—apart from, as I say, the impact on them of tenants being unrepresented.
Can I just say toQ Nimrod that I am greatly helped by South West London Law Centres in my constituency? I am very grateful for the work they do, particularly at the emergency and routine desk at Croydon county court. I can only imagine what that is like on a daily basis. Lots of very vulnerable tenants turn up with absolutely no advice, and the best advice I give to them is to get there really early and get to the front of the queue. I imagine all sorts of things happen to tenants and landlords in those courts that are not fair or reasonable, but because nobody is represented, or it is very difficult to get representation, it is difficult to avoid that.
On reforming the whole county court system, what can be done other than to resource it better and provide better advice to people? I can only imagine the amount of time-wasting going on because people are desperately in search of help. Currently, at Croydon county court, it takes 16 weeks on average to get a bailiff’s warrant after a possession order is secured. On the other end, we have the local authorities that are desperate to delay for as long as they can, because they do not have anywhere to put people. What is the resolution to that?
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
It is a tough one, for two reasons. First—this has been mentioned in previous sessions—a separate housing court should probably not be set up. That is partly because if you already have a system that is starved of relevant—mainly judicial—staff and has had its budget starved, creating a separate jurisdiction that would need to have its own of everything makes no sense. The Government are right not to create a separate one. In effect, we have a housing court that works—when resourced—fairly well in the county court. This is something that I have heard Richard talk about before, and certainly we are very strong about that.
Our understanding of where justice begins for people needs to go well beyond the court doors. That is why we keep mentioning the advice sector, legal aid and other measures. I would also include in that public legal education and helping people understand their rights as tenants, which we are not doing nearly enough. Those kinds of support would not necessarily, in themselves, create a more efficient justice system, but they would create the kind of solutions that many people seek in it, rightly or wrongly, and which they could reach elsewhere. I am sure Richard has more on that.
This is one of the ultimate challenges. If we are being asked how you can improve the situation without quite a bit of significant investment, my answer would be that you cannot. The point—this is so often overlooked—is that if you take that step back, you are still spending the money. You made the point that local authorities have to pick up the burden of homeless families. A bit of early advice to sort out the housing benefit might have meant that the family was never homeless in the first place, with huge savings to the public purse and in relation to pressures on the system. Early advice can stop cases getting to court at all and make sure that cases are better dealt with when they do go to court.
All that investment saves substantial sums. That is even before we get on to housing disrepair, where there is an impact on people’s health and the stress that is caused, which has an impact on the health service as well. There are substantial savings for the health budget in getting these things right early as well. It is penny wise and pound foolish to think we save the money here and to not look at the broader costs that we incur as a result of those tiny savings.
Q There is concern about a number of the either amended or new grounds for possession. I want to ask you specifically about the changes made to ground 14 and what they might mean for courts on the ground—specifically the change in the Bill’s wording from “likely to cause” to “capable of causing”. What do you think that means on the ground? Is there any concern from the point of view of county courts about that change, and is there perhaps a need, if the change is made, for at least guidance to the courts on how you differentiate genuine antisocial behaviour from instances of domestic violence, mental health crises and so on?
From the Law Society’s point of view, we do not take a view on the specific wording. We note that this is a still a discretionary ground and so the courts have the opportunity to look at all the circumstances and determine what is a proportionate response. That, we feel, gives a degree of protection. Beyond that, we do not have any views one way or the other about the change in the wording there.
Nimrod Ben-Cnaan:
We, however, do have quite a few concerns about that, mainly arising around case load, as you will probably recognise from yours in the community. Broadening the definition of antisocial behaviour from “likely to cause” to “capable of causing” nuisance is almost designed to catch out patterns of behaviour that could be interpreted as antisocial but which may, in fact, reflect mental health crises or domestic abuse. It is particularly worrying in situations in which the nuisance is more of a modality, as in the example of a tenant who is a hoarder but whose hoarding affects him alone and is not an environmental menace may be caught up in that ground. It needs a lot of clarification, although we are very glad that it is a discretionary ground.
I am afraid that that brings us to the end of the time allotted for you. Thank you very much to both of you for attending and for the evidence that you have given.