Chief Constable Gavin Stephens gave evidence.

We are now sitting in public and proceedings are being broadcast. Before we hear from the witnesses, do any Members wish to make any declarations of interest in connection with this Bill? No, okay.

We will now hear oral evidence from Chief Constable Gavin Stephens. Mr Stephens, you are very welcome. Thank you for joining us as Chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council. Before calling the first Member to ask a question, I remind all Members that questions should be limited to matters within the scope of the Bill and that we must stick to the timings in the programme motion that the Committee has agreed. For this panel, we have until 9.55 am. Would the witness introduce themselves for the record?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Good morning, Committee. My name is Gavin Stephens. I am chief constable and chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council.

Thank you very much. I call Alex Norris.

Thank you for your time this morning, Chief Constable. Your colleagues in the NPCC generally have talked a lot in the past couple of years about the misconduct and disciplinary processes for officers. Clause 74 relates to that to some degree. What is the NPCC’s view on it?Q

Chief Constable Stephens:

As you say, we have been doing a great deal of work in trying to strengthen the misconduct processes to ensure that those who have no place in policing are removed from the service with some speed and vigour. We welcome the additional provisions in this Bill to strengthen, in particular, the role of chief constables to have a say in who should be employed within policing. This is fundamentally an employment process. In particular, we welcome the addition to allow chief constables to have a route of appeal on decisions that, at the moment, could only be done through judicial review, so we welcome that additional measure as well.

Q Is there anything on the NPCC wish list that you would have that would go further than what is in the Bill?

Chief Constable Stephens:

We are very pleased with the progress that has been made. We see no need at this point in time for any additional provisions. The broader point perhaps is, in the service, we have been doing a great deal of work to ensure that we get the right colleagues entering and, where necessary, leaving the service. Our focus now is beyond the provisions of this Bill about professional standards throughout somebody’s vocation and career and what we do to transform the culture of policing.

Q Do you have any general comments about the antisocial behaviour provisions in the Bill?

Chief Constable Stephens:

In broad terms, we welcome the antisocial behaviour provisions. There is clearly a great deal of detail in the Bill, and we have a short period of time. If it would assist the Committee, I am happy to do a written submission after this morning with some more detailed comments on the whole range of provisions.

We broadly welcome the antisocial behaviour provisions. There is one such provision around rough sleeping, if I can call it that, where it causes a nuisance or there is some criminality associated with it. Our view is that that is something that needs very careful and measured consideration. We do not say in policing that rough sleeping is a matter solely for policing and, if the provisions are used, that should be done in conjunction with other local community safety partners and on the basis of necessity. For example, if rough sleeping is associated with mental ill health or homelessness, it is clearly not a matter for policing at all. If there are encampments that are directly associated with criminality, or where there is a direct risk to people in those encampments—because, for example, we do receive reports from time to time of serious sexual offences taking place in such rough sleeping groups—we would clearly want to act in concert with other community safety partners to ensure that people are safe. However, it is not a matter for policing to be removing tents in general, so that is something to which we would want to give very careful consideration.

Q I have one final question, if I may, Chair. Obviously, the purpose of legislation like this is that there will be new responsibilities and offences that come fundamentally to your members and their teams to enforce and to utilise those new powers. Do you have any concerns about your resourcing and ability to meet the new expectations?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Last week, we held the chief constables’ council in Edinburgh—that is, the gathering of all chief constables. One of the topics on the agenda was the financial resilience of policing. Our current estimate is that there is somewhere in the region of a £3 billion cash deficit in policing, which requires some difficult and careful choices about resourcing priorities. Where new provisions come forward—indeed, this was a recommendation in the recent productivity review of policing—they should be costed. Whereas we welcome many, if not all, provisions in the Bill—I am sure we will come on to talk about some of the caveats—there are no costings with them, and we will need to work through, in a very detailed fashion, what the additional burdens on policing will be.

Good morning, Gavin. Let me start by putting on record my thanks to you, as chair of the National Police Chiefs’ Council, and to all your colleagues in policing for the work that you and officers up and down the country do daily. You put yourselves in the line of danger to protect the rest of us, and I am sure that I speak for the whole Committee and the whole House when I put on record our thanks to you and to police officers up and down the country for the work that you do daily to keep the rest of us safe.

Chief Constable Stephens:

Thank you, Minister.

Q Let me move on to one or two of the provisions. You mentioned a moment ago the provisions concerning nuisance rough sleeping, and you rightly said that partnership working would be needed to ensure that people get the support that they need. Could you first just outline the kind of joint working that you would expect to happen to address that? Secondly, would you agree that where rough sleeping or begging is causing a nuisance to the public, it is reasonable to expect some action to be taken to prevent it?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Clearly, at local level, the work of community safety partnerships is really important to this. In different localities, they take different forms, but generally, in most borough and district areas, for example, there will be a meeting that talks about places that need particular attention from a range of partners.

If rough sleeping was causing a nuisance, we would not see that as an issue for policing solely, but we would take part in any joint problem-solving plans in order to address concerns. The issue for us would be if, for example, it was a place where criminality was being orchestrated or where people were particularly vulnerable to becoming victims of crime themselves. Clearly, there is a policing interest in that. We would support local partners, but what we would not want to see is a position where communities turn to policing in order to address the issue of rough sleeping on the streets. There needs to be something more than that that we would want to address in partnership with others.

Q Would you accept that antisocial behaviour in general is something that the public and Parliament expect police to act on?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Absolutely, yes. My experience in many years of policing is that communities often do not make a distinction between criminality and antisocial behaviour. If things are affecting their day-to-day lives, they often consider some of those things to be a crime, even if they are not on the statute book, and expect action against them. In this particular instance, we just need to be cautious that we are not using policing powers in order to address a wider social problem—particularly, for example, where it might be due to mental ill health and other complex factors.

Q In relation to recovering stolen goods, members of the public often express surprise and frustration that when, for example, an iPhone is stolen and they can see where it is, the police do not necessarily go and retrieve it as quickly as the public would like and expect.

Would you agree that the warrantless powers of entry contained in the Bill, to enter premises to recover stolen goods where there is no other quick way of doing that and where there is a reasonable suspicion that the stolen goods are on the premises, will help the police to recover stolen goods and to arrest thieves who might otherwise go undetected and unpunished?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Such a provision would be supportive to operational policing if implemented carefully and thoughtfully, and in conjunction with the other powers that currently exist. One of the topics about stolen property that has led to this provision is the theft of mobile devices that might emit a signal as to where they currently are. It is the view of police that those systems are not currently accurate enough to give a precise location on every occasion.

Clearly, there will be a significant difference between a rural area with dispersed properties and a dense urban environment where you might have maisonettes and blocks of flats when it comes to being able to precisely locate a stolen item. There are available to us under other legislation very intrusive techniques, to be used covertly, whereby we can accurately pinpoint devices, but that is not what is envisaged, I believe, in this particular provision, and we would need to exercise the powers carefully.

Such a provision needs some level of authority. The Bill mentions an inspector authority, which would be commensurate with other search powers following arrest, for example. That would need to be used in conjunction with additional intelligence, bearing in mind that that power could be used at premises where we might not suspect the people inside to have anything to do with the crime. If we suspected that they did, other powers are available to us, such as power of arrest, power of search following arrest and inspector authority to search the premises. The powers contained in the Bill around searching the premises would not cover searching people within those premises, or, again, multiple occupancy.

The general tenet is, yes, this would be very operationally useful. There would need to be careful consideration about the interfacing with existing policing powers and the level of authority needed to exercise the powers. Fundamentally, in exercising those powers, we would need to maintain the consent of communities that they are being used proportionately, lawfully and only where absolutely necessary.

Thank you, Gavin. I have one more question. As you know, we have been debating retail crime a great deal. The retail crime action plan, which Chief Constable Amanda Blakeman, in consultation with the Government, published just a few weeks ago, was extremely welcome. One thing that we have debated in Parliament, including during the passage of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, which the hon. Member for Stockton South—I mean the hon. Member for Stockton North; we have to be very careful when referring to Stockton these days—and I remember very fondly was whether we needed a separate offence of assaulting a retail worker.

In that piece of legislation, we ended up not creating a separate offence and instead making it a statutory aggravating factor where the victim is a retail worker. From a policing point of view, do you consider that that provides adequate protection for retail workers? Do you think that there would be any benefit in creating a separate offence of assaulting a retail worker, or would you be concerned that, if you did that, you could then ask, “What about teachers? What about local councillors? What about minors?” and so on?

Chief Constable Stephens:

On additional offences, we have provisions relating to emergency service workers, which is right and proper. In relation to retail crime, the important thing for policing is that we get a grip on the scale of the emerging problem, hence the action plan that you mentioned, Minster.

Police received over a quarter of a million reports of retail theft in the financial year 2022-23, and there has been a 29% rise in the number of arrests. We are clearly taking action, but there is much more to do. I would be concerned if we started adding to a list of additional assault categories, because where is the limit? People who provide vital public services—I would say that retail is a vital public service, and it is important to the vibrancy of local communities and so on—are worthy of particular consideration, but it is a question of where the limits would be.

Thank you.

Before I bring Jess in, four further Members have caught my eye. You have nine minutes between you, so bear that in mind.

MessageQ received.

To take you back to the conduct questions that you started with, are you satisfied with the current system in policing for finding bad conduct where it has occurred?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Once the new provisions are introduced, we will be more satisfied with the system. When the new provisions are in place, we in policing will need to work hard to make sure that we are getting through at more speed. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner has talked about the number of backlogs in the Met, for example. That is not just in the Met; it is replicated in our member organisations across England and Wales, so speed is definitely one thing.

Fundamentally—I have had these discussions privately with the Minister and others—we need to reclaim this as an employment process. It has become too legalistic over time.

Okay, but are you convinced that the powers in this Bill and the intelligence that you have currently is enough to identify misconduct such as—I declare a special interest—sexual violence and domestic abuse in offices?Q

Chief Constable Stephens:

Yes, given the right emphasis and the right resourcing.

I know the answer to this question, but I will ask it anyway. Do you know whether the findings in civil courts in our country of a case where, for example, a police officer is found, in a finding of fact hearing in the family court, to have raped his wife, would appear on your intelligence system?Q

Chief Constable Stephens:

I could not give a guarantee that it always would.

Q I guarantee you that it does not. Do you think that it would be helpful to have a repository of information from all of the courts in our land on safeguarding findings, such as on child abuse, for the police to access to ensure that conduct could be guaranteed?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Yes, absolutely.

Thank you.

OnQ the issue of rough sleeping, I totally get that the police need to work with partners. By the way, I would just like to say that Essex police are doing phenomenal work on this and many other issues in the Chelmsford city centre, using hotspots and grid policing and so on, but occasionally, even though we are trying to give people support, there are some people with complex needs who are still sleeping on the streets, and we sometimes have the issue that they are sleeping in the fire escape of a large store, for example, which causes danger to others. Are the powers in this Bill the sort of powers that you could use to gently request that that person sleeps in another venue, without blocking a fire escape?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Policing can gently request, persuade, cajole and encourage without powers.

Or stronger.

Chief Constable Stephens:

Back to my earlier point, we would want to do so in conjunction with other partners that can provide the support. From a policing perspective, for us to get to the point where we would want to use powers, we would want to know that it is causing a danger to somebody or that there is real criminality. I can think of a number of ways in which we would be able to deal with the example you describe without resorting to powers.

Q Okay, but they are not doing it now, so they clearly do not have the power now. Will this give police the power to say, “No sleeping in this fire escape, which is putting hundreds of lives at risk if there is a fire”?

Chief Constable Stephens:

This would give a power to move them on, but my previous points stand.

Q Thank you. On the issue of retail crime, again, my local police have been doing some very good work on tackling shoplifting, including of smaller items, but sometimes, obviously, there is concern about assaults on shop workers. How do you currently tackle assaults on shop workers? Would having a specific offence of assaulting a shop worker make a difference, or would you then say that we need to have offences of assaulting a teacher or assaulting lots of other professions as well?

Chief Constable Stephens:

It would not make a difference in terms of the investigation and operational response, because clearly that is something that police would act on anyway. On whether you would want additional emphasis—whether it would be the will of Parliament to have additional emphasis—when it comes to sentencing, that is a separate matter. But it would not make a difference to the initial policing response to investigate the assault.

Q Okay. From time to time, we get very serious issues in the night-time economy, with people being spiked. The concern is often raised that although spiking is covered by law, it is a very ancient law, and if one had a specific offence about spiking that was crystal clear, that would act as a deterrent to the spikers. What are your thoughts on that?

Chief Constable Stephens:

We are very concerned about drink spiking and its rise over recent years. Powers to give that additional emphasis, as a deterrent, would be welcome.

Thank you.

I remind Members to try to avoid asking the same questions, because we are limited for time with our witnesses. I call Mark Garnier.

Chief Constable, thank you for coming. On this retail crime thing, obviously it is a big scourge—my congratulations to you on increasing arrest rates by, I think, 29%.Q

One complaint that I have heard from my local police is that, although they can come in, arrest people and charge people, and take them to court, quite often the retailer, who is the victim of the crime, may be reluctant, after a few instances to go to court and spend a day in court away from their shop. Then, quite possibly, it will be a suspended sentence and that criminal will be back in their shop the next day, after they have lost that day’s work. Does this Bill address any of those particular problems, and do you, in your capacity, find that a problem in securing prosecutions against retail criminals?

Chief Constable Stephens:

From the consultation that we have done with the team on this, that has not been reported as a particular problem. I think that the broader problem is the work we need to do in policing to regain the confidence of retailers that we are taking this seriously enough. If we regain that confidence, part of that is regaining the confidence of witnesses to come forward with evidence. New technology that has been discussed as part of the action plan, such as the use of CCTV and facial recognition and so on, when used effectively may well reduce the need for live witnesses to give evidence, if the evidence is incontrovertible.

Thank you very much.

Good morning. I want to talk a bit about knife crime. I am sure all of us have constituents who have been a victim of knife crime or affected by it. Can you speak about the work you are doing to reduce knife crime and whether you think the provisions in the Bill will improve the situationQ ?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Absolutely. The National Police Chiefs’ Council has a knife crime working group, which has been working closely with colleagues in the Home Office for a number of years. I would say that the provisions in the Bill have been drafted in very close consultation with the team. We are very concerned about the use of weapons to intimidate and threaten, not least when they are used in violence. I am conscious of time, but I could provide the Committee with some written examples of where we think the new provisions would help—for instance, the taunting of rival gangs on social media using particular weapons—and the provisions that currently exist and would be strengthened by the Bill. We very much welcome these provisions.

Q So there would be an offence of being seen with a weapon, as opposed to actually carrying it and using it. Is that what you are saying?

Chief Constable Stephens:

There are a number of provisions here, including the ability to seize knives, even though they are lawfully being held, if we suspect they are going to be used in criminality. We see that as a very important preventive measure.

On that point, the ability of the police to seize knives that may be lawfully held in private but that the police suspect may be used to threaten is now contained in clause 18. Is clause 18 going to be very beneficial to you operationally?Q

Chief Constable Stephens:

Yes. We agree that it is going to be beneficial.

Q Coming to other areas of knife crime, can you give us some examples of how the new offence of possession of a knife or offensive weapon with intent to use in unlawful violence bridges the gap in legislation between simple possession and using a bladed article or offensive weapon to threaten or harm someone? How will that help the police to tackle knife crime in a more proactive manner?

Chief Constable Stephens:

Again, I will keep it very brief, as I can provide written examples. We have seen on social media—on Snapchat-type channels—threats being made to rival groups. I have seen examples from colleagues in the Metropolitan police from the Notting Hill Carnival, where the threat was towards a group of people who might be present in a particular locality. The ability to have stronger provisions to prevent and disrupt potential violence is really important to us.

If there are no further questions, I thank the witness for their evidence and we will move on to the next panel.