Clause 38 - English language requirements for public sector workers

Immigration Bill – in a Public Bill Committee am 2:15 pm ar 10 Tachwedd 2015.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

Clauses 38 to 45 deal with the question of English language requirements for public sector workers.

I will deal with the subsections of clause 38 in turn. Subsection (1) sets out the requirement for public authorities to ensure that each of their workers in customer-facing roles speak fluent English. I know you will have an interest in this, Mr Owen: clause 43 provides specifically that where there are statutory duties in Wales, the requirement includes fluency in English and in the language of heaven. All members of the public who access public services need to be able to understand the information provided and be confident that their needs are thoroughly understood. Ensuring that that is the case will not only create better and more efficient services for taxpayers but will contribute to meeting our manifesto commitments to promote British values, in a positive and appropriate way.

Subsection (2) will require all public authorities to have regard to a code of practice when deciding how to comply with the duty set out in subsection (1). Of course, public authorities will have an opportunity to help shape that code of practice by responding to the open consultation that has been live since 13 October and will run until early December. Copies of the consultation documents have been placed in the Library of the House.

Subsections (3) and (4) will require each public authority to operate a complaints procedure. Citizens must, of course, be able to report their experience of a customer-facing worker not speaking fluent English. Public bodies must consider and respond to those complaints.

Subsections (5), (6) and (7) explain that a worker in the scope of the duty will be someone working under a contract of employment or of apprenticeship with a public authority, as a contractor to do work personally for a public authority, as an agency worker or as a police officer, civil servant or member of the armed forces. Speaking with members of the public must be a “regular and intrinsic part” of their role.

Photo of Keir Starmer Keir Starmer Shadow Minister (Home Office)

There is some concern that such a clause could operate in a discriminatory manner, with complaints and assumptions being made about what is fluent English and who is able to speak fluent English. Will the Solicitor General give an assurance that effective measures will be put in the code or elsewhere to ensure that any potential discriminatory effects and consequences are mitigated or eliminated?

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I can give the hon. and learned Gentleman several assurances. First, in assessing the potential discriminatory impact of the clause, the consultation process is an important part of allowing Government to understand precisely what the pressures might be. I also assure him that the standards of fluency will be assessed by the employer. The draft code of practice already contains welcome indicative standards for what various qualifications mean in terms of English fluency. Therefore, within the interview and selection process, there will be systems in place that can be deployed to deflect some of the more specious complaints that might be made. There will be an objective standard rather than a somewhat fluid situation, which I am sure he agrees would be wholly unsatisfactory.

I was going to deal with the basic definition of fluency that will underpin the code of practice. Subsection (8) explains that for the purposes of the Bill,

“a person speaks fluent English if the person has a command of spoken English which is sufficient to enable the effective performance of the person’s role.”

Therefore, it follows that employers will have to satisfy themselves of that criterion among the others that they might deploy in seeking persons to fill vacancies for customer-facing jobs. Subsection (9) clarifies that the requirement to speak fluent English applies to existing workers and new members of staff. Finally, subsection (10) provides that the clause does not apply to those who work for public authorities where work is carried out mainly or wholly outside the United Kingdom.

The code of practice will be an important part of fulfilling our commitment, and it will assist public authorities to comply with every aspect of the new duty. I commend the clause to the Committee.

Photo of Anne McLaughlin Anne McLaughlin Shadow SNP Spokesperson (Civil Liberties)

Part 7 of the Bill, which comprises clauses 38 to 45, is completely unnecessary and unworkable. It will have negative consequences, whether intended or not; I have some difficulty coming to a conclusion on that one. Perhaps when the Minister speaks later, it will be easier for me to do so. It goes against the wider measures advocated by the Government in the Bill. I will argue those points in turn, but I hope that the Committee will allow common sense to prevail and scrap this part of the Bill.

It is clear that the clauses are unnecessary from the overwhelming lack of evidence from the Government or anyone else that legislation is required. Page 25 of the explanatory notes state that clause 38 is being introduced in order

“to improve the quality of service provided by public authorities, such as the NHS and the police”.

The question is surely why those professionals have not demanded such legislation themselves. I note the submission from the British Medical Association stating that doctors must already pass the international English language testing system to a level set by the General Medical Council or provide evidence to the equivalent. If the Committee does not agree to scrap part 7 of the Bill, will the Minister provide assurances that it will not result in duplication?

The fact is that part 7 in its entirety is merely a duplication of what any employer asks of an applicant: do they have the skills for the role? I challenge any Member here to tell me whether they know of any firefighters turning up to save our lives who have to  bring an interpreter with them, or whether any of them have visited a GP and had to explain their symptoms in mime because the GP does not speak English. It simply does not happen. Many of my constituents have terrible problems with the Department for Work and Pensions. I was of the view that that was due in the main to unfair policies, but I had not considered that it is perhaps because the Government employ people who do not speak the language of this country. I have never heard of that, and have never experienced it.

That point is made eloquently by the Royal College of Nursing, which argues against duplicating and undermining the standards being developed by the Nursing and Midwifery Council. That is what it is: an undermining of professional bodies. The fact remains that it is professionals, not Ministers, who have a sophisticated understanding of the level of English required for professional roles. The RCN states:

“We question whether it would be appropriate for ministers to set out standards rather than professional regulators, such as the NMC, as is currently the case.”

Far be it from me to argue for lighter-touch regulation to a Tory Government, but the professionals themselves are safeguarding public services, so it is difficult to envisage a Minister, of whatever party, devising a more sophisticated practice-led assessment of language skills than the professional bodies representing the public sector. The Government are fond of saying that they are fixing the roof while the sun is shining, but here they are putting a leaky tin roof in place of one that functions. Like much of the Bill, regardless of our respective opinions on the rights and wrongs, these provisions simply do not make sense.

The TUC rightly asked the Government for evidence of a lack of language ability in public-facing public sector roles at the moment. It is simply not an issue, as the TUC has said:

“In fact, evidence from unions shows adequate English language skills are already a requirement”— funnily enough—

“to be employed in customer facing roles in the public sector.”

No one who has worked in the public sector or employed anyone in a public-facing role in the private sector can have any doubt that that is already very much the case, making this part of the Bill completely redundant.

I ask again: who among us has teachers in our constituency who cannot speak English? Their role is to teach English-speaking children. It therefore goes without saying that they must speak English. Language support workers in schools, who interpret for children with no or little English, will have to be able to speak English to be able to interpret. Who among us knows of anyone employed to interpret from English who does not speak English?

I have suggested that part 7 of the Bill will be unworkable, and that is self-evident from a glance at the draft code of practice. It will quite rightly not be permitted to investigate a complaint based on an accent or dialect, which are two of the most noticeable features of someone’s use of language. But frequently, people mistake an accent they are not used to or attuned to for an inability to speak English, when that is not the case.

Miscommunication is a fact of life, as Members will testify. But given that we speak English that, if not quite the Queen’s English, is at least identifiably British, a few slips of grammar in a conversation will generally go unremarked upon. Let us consider the case of an individual who has fluent English to the standard required to fulfil their role but who, due to tiredness or whatever other cause, makes a significant grammatical mistake that then leads to a complaint. If I made such a mistake speaking with my Glaswegian accent, it would probably not lead to a complaint—although you never know—but a recent migrant with, say, a Nigerian accent who made the same mistake for the same reason could find that they were required to have additional training or were being investigated. That would be a colossal waste of public sector time and resources.

I appeal to the Government: if they believe in public sector efficiency, surely it is inconceivable that wasting staff and management time investigating misspoken English is in anyone’s best interests. Part 7 of the Bill puts that millstone around their neck. It also gives the lie to any idea that the Government favour integrating people into British society. If a migrant has made the effort successfully to secure a job in the public sector, working in a public-facing role, the Government should be commending that individual for finding work in a new country, possibly with a new language, and definitely for paying taxes to support our public sector. Neither those individuals nor managers in our public sector should be made to endure the spurious complaints and box-ticking training courses—taking them away from the job that they should be doing—that will follow this unnecessary legislation.

In essence, that is one of the main problems with this part of the Bill—it is unnecessary. It serves no discernible public good not already covered by proper recruitment policies. I fear that the Government are adding red tape to please the red tops and have already wasted countless hours of public sector work putting the requirements into the Bill. I appeal to the Conservative Members who believe in small government, cutting bureaucracy and letting the public sector get on with providing front-line services not to burden it with unnecessary legislation.

Let me tell the Committee what my big fear is. I am desperately worried that the measure will play into the hands of racists and of those who are not instinctively racist, but who are susceptible to racist arguments and fear-mongering. I wonder whether the Government realise the influence that they have over the thoughts of ordinary people. I hear Members tell us repeatedly that immigration is the No. 1 issue on the doorsteps. I also hear Members preface that with “We all know”, but no, we do not all know. I can tell the Committee that in constituencies throughout Scotland it rarely features even in the top 10 issues.

I represent a constituency that is probably the most diverse in Scotland. Poor, working-class communities such as those in Sighthill in my constituency welcomed asylum seekers with open arms—and I mean open arms. I do not just mean community groups, church groups and statutory organisations; I mean ordinary people who opened their hearts to those who needed our help. I am not saying that nobody ever mentions immigration, but I recall only one woman mentioning it during the last election campaign, and I was a very active campaigner. If the constituency with the highest  levels of deprivation in Scotland and probably the highest proportion of immigrants, including asylum seekers, does not see it as a problem, we have to ask ourselves why.

Incidentally, I do not believe for a minute that Scottish people are naturally any kinder or more welcoming than English people. People are just people, wherever we go in the world, but the one dramatic difference I notice in Scotland is the rhetoric coming from the leadership. The Scottish Government have been overtly welcoming to immigrants and publicly conscious of their duty to help people who require it. They have done everything they can in words and actions to welcome people who are new to the country. Again, that is not a Scottish National party thing. The previous Labour-Lib Dem Administration was much the same.

Our newspapers are also more migrant-friendly than the newspapers down south. Immigration is a big problem in the country where political leaders and the media are largely hostile to migrants, and it is barely mentioned in the country where the opposite is true. Members do not need to take my word for it; they can watch the BBC programme “Question Time”, because it is notable that almost every episode held down south has a question about immigration, but we rarely get that when it is held in Scotland. There is clearly a correlation between the attitudes of political leaders and the media and public opinion.

I will wait to hear from the Solicitor General before deciding if the negative consequences of this part of the Bill were, to my mind, intended or not. What I will do, however, is tell the Committee how it looks to me right now. It looks like the Government are pandering to the right-wing press that dishes out anti-immigrant propaganda, and it looks like the reason for doing that is to further entrench opinion against immigrants. In other words, this looks like ideologically-driven, prejudicial and inflammatory nonsense. As I said, I live in hope that the Solicitor General will disabuse me of that view, and I will keep an open mind when hearing what he has to say. We know that discrimination has increased following the trial of the right-to-rent provisions—[Interruption.]

Photo of Albert Owen Albert Owen Llafur, Ynys Môn 2:30, 10 Tachwedd 2015

Order. May I say to Members on the Back Benches that the microphones are very sensitive and are picking up every conversation? I wish to hear only one voice: that of the person speaking.

Photo of Anne McLaughlin Anne McLaughlin Shadow SNP Spokesperson (Civil Liberties)

Thank you, Mr Owen. Discrimination has increased following the trial of the right-to-rent provisions, which has led to people being judged not to look or sound British and to their having increased difficulty finding accommodation. The exact same prejudice will now face those working in the public sector, with people who sound as if they are not from Britain at risk of spurious complaints and victimisation.

Our public sector workers are doing increasingly difficult work, thanks to the Government’s cuts agenda. They are often working with fewer resources and taking on more responsibilities. It does not take a genius to see that this will be stressful for the worker and for those using the service, nor does it take a particularly high IQ to imagine that a disgruntled and stressed-out member of the public may take out their frustration with their situation on a member of staff. If that person is obviously an immigrant, there is a risk that complaints will be  brought against them on the grounds of language ability—a complaint that would then have to be investigated. All that does is waste time and money, and increase the stress levels of everyone involved.

I have seen it myself. I have been in a GP surgery where I heard people muttering about the African receptionist—“Could they not get somebody who can speak English?”—when she was speaking perfectly good English, since it was her first language, as it is for many people coming to this country. All that was different about her was the colour of her skin and her accent. Now those racist mutterings can be turned into formal complaints—[Interruption.] Yes, they can. The Government are legitimising that racism instead of tackling it head on. If I am wrong about the intentions, will the Minister tell us if and how he will assess the implementation of this part of the Bill? If he does not intend this part of the Bill to have such consequences, and if he does in fact care but does not believe that my fears are founded, will he at least consider the possibility that I might be right, assess this at a later stage and be willing to review it if necessary?

Part 7 makes it much more difficult for genuine migrants to integrate. It places a ludicrous burden on public agencies at a time when the Government are asking them to tighten their belts. It punishes those who have come here legally and are trying to get on and contribute to this society. Part 7 legitimises the rantings of racists, who will say, “Well, there is obviously a problem or the Government wouldn’t have to have a law to stop it.” In fact, it goes against much of what people believe the Tory party stands for—not me, incidentally, but some people. Part 7 certainly goes against the principles of the Scottish National party, and I urge all Members to reject clauses 38 to 45.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I would like to say that this debate has created more light than heat, but I am afraid that I cannot do so. With the greatest of respect to the hon. Lady, people such as the receptionist she mentioned will be protected by these provisions, safe in the knowledge that they have fulfilled the criteria set out in the code of practice. They have nothing to fear from people who, through racism or prejudice, may wish to make specious claims. I wholly reject her prospectus.

Photo of Anne McLaughlin Anne McLaughlin Shadow SNP Spokesperson (Civil Liberties)

If the Minister is saying that that receptionist will be protected against spurious complaints, does he mean that nobody is allowed to make a spurious complaint? If so, will it be decided that a complaint is spurious before the receptionist is informed? The stress levels suffered by someone who has had an unlawful complaint made against them are just as bad as they would be if the complaint were founded.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I am sorry, but the hon. Lady acknowledged that several parts of the public sector have basic proficiency requirements in place. I am afraid that all of us in a public sector role, including everyone in this building and elsewhere, will be the subject of complaints from time to time. Some of those complaints might be wholly justified; others will not be justified. I do not accept for one minute that these provisions will increase the culture of fear that she has colourfully, but wholly erroneously, painted. She is right to say that some parts of the public sector have minimum standards of English for their staff. The provision underpins and  widens that duty so that the rest of the public sector is brought into line with those who are leading the way and being proactive.

Photo of Anne McLaughlin Anne McLaughlin Shadow SNP Spokesperson (Civil Liberties)

I thank the Minister for giving way—I appreciate it. Which parts of the public sector employ people who do not speak English in a public-facing role? I have listed all the possibilities, but I have never experienced it, and I have seen no evidence that anyone here has experienced it.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for sharing her anecdotal experiences, but the Home Office has done pre-consultation modelling, based on the proportion of over-16s in employment in the public administration, education and healthcare sectors according to 2011 census data—those are important, objective, statutory data obtained from the British population. According to that modelling, about 3.6 million employees are within the scope of the proposed duty and about 1.5 million employees in Great Britain, excluding Northern Ireland, are subject to English language standards, so an extra 2.1 million employees will be newly affected by the duty. We anticipate that between a low of 8,500 workers and a high of 25,000 workers may not have the required standards of English fluency. There is objective evidence upon which we can base this policy.

The policy is not designed suddenly to change the game or somehow create a wholly new structure that will alter the balance and change societal attitudes towards people who have a heavy accent. I include myself in that—I know the hon. Lady is as proud of her accent as I am proud of mine. We are seeking to standardise and enhance the position of people who have come to this country to work and who might have a different ethnicity or background. They will be employed under the same objective criteria that will be applied to everybody else in the public sector.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General 2:45, 10 Tachwedd 2015

I will give way in a moment, but first I want to read a highlighted extract from the draft code of practice consultation relating to complaints. I hope that it will help the hon. Lady. Paragraph 4.5 says:

“Public authorities are not obliged by this Code of Practice to respond to complaints that are vexatious, oppressive, threatening or abusive. These should be given their usual dictionary meaning and could be defined as those complaints that are without foundation and/or which are intended to result in harsh or wrongful treatment of the person referred to in the complaint. In these types of circumstances a complaint should not be allowed to continue.”

I commend that paragraph to the House.

Photo of Keir Starmer Keir Starmer Shadow Minister (Home Office)

In so far as the measures extend the existing duties on public authorities to consider the requirement in the first place, they do not go much further than the existing position, but I think that the hon. Lady is pointing at the complaints procedure, which the Minister just touched on. Will he assure the Committee that the only complaints that the provision is intended to open up are complaints against the public authority for failing to carry out its duties, and not  complaints made about an individual? That would give a considerable degree of assurance that there is no intention for the measures to allow anyone to say, “I am complaining about X,” when what they are really complaining about is public authority Y, which has not done its job properly. There is a big difference in terms of how the complaints procedure would then be used.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I can confirm that paragraph 4.1 of the draft code says:

“This section of the Code is about the procedure a public authority should take should there be a complaint regarding a breach of the fluency duty.”

That means a complaint against the public authority for having breached that duty. There are no sanctions in part 7 that could be applied directly to staff. As I said, it is a duty for the public authority.

Photo of Keir Starmer Keir Starmer Shadow Minister (Home Office)

This is an important point. Can the Minister write to us on that specific issue? It also arises from clause 41(2)(c), according to my reading; I think that he would provide assurance if he wrote to the Committee—to me and other hon. Members—to say that that is the intention of the complaints procedure. One can see the scope otherwise for concern about complaints.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I understand entirely, and I am happy to do so. I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman and any Committee members concerned about consequences for staff that dismissal would be a matter extremely far down the line in these procedures. We are talking about improving systems. That does not entail an ad hominem attack on individuals; it is about the public authority and any perceived failure on its part.

Photo of Keir Starmer Keir Starmer Shadow Minister (Home Office)

I am grateful for the assurance about frivolous and other vexatious complaints. I know from having 9,000 staff of my own that what causes great anxiety is the fact that a complaint has been made to the individual, even if some weeks or months down the line it might be ruled out. If a number of complaints are made about a particular member of staff, that will increase anxiety hugely. The greater the clarity that the Minister can give here, the better. For a member of staff, simply knowing that a complaint might be knocked out in three months does not affect the anxiety that they feel when doing in their job.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I take point made by the hon. and learned Gentleman, and that made by the hon. Member for Glasgow North East. I will write to the Committee, as I have indicated.

On the question of bureaucracy, the measures take a minimalist approach. The code of practice will guide public authorities to align their actions regarding the new duty with existing practice. We expect a minimal expansion to existing procedures to suffice. Our open consultation will allow any concerns about bureaucracy to be raised and taken into account.

Photo of Anne McLaughlin Anne McLaughlin Shadow SNP Spokesperson (Civil Liberties)

Does that mean that the British Medical Association, for instance, will be allowed to make its own assessment?

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

The hon. Lady has mentioned a body that operates its own minimum standards. I envisage that where organisations are already doing that work, it will be a fairly easy task for them to satisfy a code of practice, but again, I would be interested to hear what they have to say as part of the consultation. I am sure that the intention is for dovetailing in any expansion of the duty, so that we standardise it across the whole public sector, thanking those particular outliers for being proactive in the area.

Photo of Keir Starmer Keir Starmer Shadow Minister (Home Office)

Again, this is by way of seeking assurance. This discussion is in the context of an Immigration Bill, but the measures will cover all individuals. Can the Minister give an assurance that careful consideration will be given to how the measures apply to individuals with any kind of learning or speech difficulty, regardless of background, ethnicity and so on? There is the potential for impact on people who fall into those categories. I know that that is not the intention, but we would gratefully receive a high level of assurance.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I am happy to give that. From my own understanding and experience of such issues, I am extremely keen to ensure that people who are fluent but who might, due to disability, express themselves slightly differently, are not discriminated against in any way.

On the question of setting a single standard, again, to enlarge the point that I was making, because the public sector has such a broad range of customer-facing roles, whether they be heart surgeons or parking enforcement officers, different particular standards will be appropriate. Therefore, the code will guide public authorities to set a standard that is proportionate to the nature of the spoken interaction that is an integral part of each role. To reinforce the point that I just made to the hon. and learned Gentleman about discrimination, public authorities, like all employers, are prohibited from discriminating against members of staff and job applicants by the terms of the Equality Act 2010, under which disability is a protected characteristic. Of course that will be relevant to individuals with a speech impediment.

Photo of Anne McLaughlin Anne McLaughlin Shadow SNP Spokesperson (Civil Liberties)

I appreciate the Minister letting me butt in so often. He has said that there is a public duty under equalities legislation not to discriminate against a potential employee, but discrimination happens and we know that it happens. It is far harder for someone to find a job if they are black; basically, it is much more difficult. The Committee has heard most of my fears, but my fear on this is that is that, just as landlords feel that they will discriminate whether they really want to or not, these measures will make employers more fearful of employing somebody who might get complaints against them because of language—not because they cannot speak the language fluently, but because they sound and look different. It will make it even harder for people to find employment. All the equalities legislation in the world is only useful if people know how to use it and have the resources to use it.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I hear the hon. Lady, but I must remind her that we are talking about public authorities, which have had to, quite rightly, adapt their practices to take into account legislation such as the Equality Act 2010,  which consolidated and enhanced a number of other statutes passed over a generation or more, which in turn dealt with racism, disability discrimination and so on. They were Acts of Parliament passed by all parties in this House. I would be as distressed as she if a public authority misused in any way what I would submit are the benign duties in the clause to reverse the progress that we have made. It is not about whether somebody looks or sounds different; it is about basic standards of proficiency and fluency that will improve public services.

Photo of Keir Starmer Keir Starmer Shadow Minister (Home Office)

I apologise for adding to the shopping list of assurances, but it is done, I hope, in the right spirit and with concern that is shared across the House. This problem might have been addressed, but there must be some public authorities that use sign language for some of those deemed to be customers or service users. Those fluent in sign language may not in fact be able to speak fluent English. Perhaps there is an obvious answer to this—if there is, I apologise—but the words “speaks fluent English” in clause 38(8) cause me some concern. There may be an easy reassurance. If there is, I will be assured.

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman for raising an issue in which I take a personal interest—the use of British sign language and other means for deaf people to participate in all aspects of our mainstream life. To parenthesise for a moment, I am sure that he would be interested in the work that I am doing to explore why deaf people cannot serve on juries, for example. It seems to me wholly ridiculous, but that is the position at the moment. Perhaps we can talk about that offline.

A British sign language interpreter is of course arguably a reasonable adjustment that is provided under an employer’s duty towards staff with a disability under the Equality Act 2010. That would be part and parcel of a person’s work; so to use it as a basis for suggesting lack of fluency would be wholly wrong and self-defeating. It is important to remember that people with disabilities, with reasonable adjustments, increasingly form part of the mainstream workforce. The provision is not designed to cut across that.

I think we all benefit from the fact that people with different ethnic origins work in our public services. Whatever they sound like and wherever they are from we welcome them all; but it is important—and they would agree—that we make sure there is a basic standard, to ensure that all sections of society have the fullest confidence in our public services. The measure goes a long way to protect our public servants.

Photo of Paul Blomfield Paul Blomfield Llafur, Sheffield Central

I concur with the point that the Solicitor General makes, but I did not necessarily recognise the figures he gave earlier as a description of the problem. They were census data, which did not necessarily relate to the issue. However, let us assume that there is a problem. Is the Minister not concerned that what he wants to do will be undermined by the cuts of the order of 30% in the adult skills budget since 2010, which have had a direct impact on the courses in English for speakers of other languages that give people precisely the skills he is looking for? In the spirit of his proposals will he make representations to his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to increase that budget?

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

At this stage what I will say is that those points need to be fed into the consultation, so that in the code of practice we get objective standards for fluency absolutely right. I note from the code of practice that there is a helpful table in the draft suggesting the stages of proficiency that can be equated with various qualifications, such as GCSEs, GCE A-levels or NQFs.

The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, which I would argue needs further discussion. I hope that if, when the code of practice is finalised, the issue he raises is causing problems, that will be reflected in a system that, while still objective, will include an understanding that fluency can sometimes be measured in a non-academic way, which would therefore need to be built into any assessment such as a written test or other proficiency test conducted by the employer or prospective employer when interviewing candidates for a job. That could be an objective standard.

Photo of Anne McLaughlin Anne McLaughlin Shadow SNP Spokesperson (Civil Liberties)

Is not that the same as allowing the employers to follow their current recruitment processes and make the judgment themselves? If things are going to be that vague, why do not we just continue to allow employers to make the assessment themselves?

Photo of Robert Buckland Robert Buckland The Solicitor-General

What we are doing is making sure that the practice spreads. Indeed, some employers do it already; but we think that the duty would spread it throughout the public service. The hon. Lady may well be right; normal assessment processes may be perfectly sufficient. Examples might be a spoken interview or the choice to require an applicant to answer a detailed interview question in English or Welsh, or to possess a relevant qualification, or pass a specifically tailored competency test. It is not a matter of heavy prescription.

The Opposition cannot have it both ways. On one level, they are telling us that they are concerned that the proposals will be too bureaucratic, and on another, when I suggest that this is in fact, more flexible, they ask what the point is. There is a point: it is all about spreading best practice through all levels of public service.

To respond to the point made by the hon. Member for Sheffield Central about ESOL, ESOL courses are more than just about fluency in English. They go beyond that, so the requirement to have an ESOL qualification will often not be necessary in the context of applications for jobs in the public sector. Although he makes an interesting and proper point, it is not quite on all fours with the particular requirements that this code of practice and statutory duty will involve.

For all the reasons that I have outlined, I commend the clause to the Committee.

Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The Committee divided: Ayes 9, Noes 1.

Rhif adran 31 Decision Time — Clause 38 - English language requirements for public sector workers

Ie: 9 MPs

Na: 1 MP

Ie: A-Z fesul cyfenw

Na: A-Z fesul cyfenw

Question accordingly agreed to.

Clause 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.