Part of Modern Slavery Bill – in a Public Bill Committee am 10:30 am ar 9 Medi 2014.
I beg to move amendment 70, in clause 11, page 8, line 25, leave out “or ought to have known”.
[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] It was worth waiting for. I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Pritchard, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North for taking clauses 1 to 10.
Amendment 70 is one of a series of probing amendments that we have tabled to the next few clauses in order to get some clarity about how the Government are thinking on particular issues. We support clause 11—we do not have a problem with it. It is absolutely right that those found guilty of an offence under clause 2 can potentially forfeit a land vehicle, ship or aircraft. There is no problem with that.
As the Minister will know, clause 11(5) contains a definition of how the clause will apply to individuals found guilty of an offence under clause 2. As drafted, subsection (5) says:
“This subsection applies where a person who, at the time the offence was committed—
(a) owned the ship or aircraft, or
(b) was a director, secretary or manager of a company which owned it, knew or ought to have known of the intention to use it in the course of the commission of an offence under section 2.”
It is perfectly reasonable to apply the clause to an individual convicted of an offence under clause 2 who owns the ship or aircraft: people who own an asset should have knowledge of what it is being used for. It is perfectly reasonable for an individual who is the director, secretary or manager of a company that owned the ship or aircraft to be held responsible for the ownership and actions involving that asset. It is self-evident that if someone knew that an asset for which they were responsible was being used for the commission of an offence under clause 2, their inclusion under the clause is perfectly reasonable.
I have tabled amendment 70 to test what the Minister means by including in subsection (5) the words “ought to have known”. That is a very wide phrase. I potentially ought to know what is on television tonight, but I do not. I ought to have known about Government amendments 5, 25 and 26 to the previous clause, but I did not, because my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North dealt with them. There are lots of things that I ought to have known but did not. Will the Minister define what she means by “ought to have known”? It is important, not because I want to delete those words from the Bill, but because when the Bill becomes law, at some point in time, somewhere in the United Kingdom, someone will be in the dock in a court because they “ought to have known” what an asset was being used for. I do not want either the defence or the prosecution to make a case that is full of holes because of subsection (5).
I would like some clarity, so I challenge the Minister to use this opportunity to put into Hansard what she means by “ought to have known”. There is clarity in “ownership of an aircraft”, in “director, secretary or manager” of a company, and, subject to prosecution tests, in “knew” what an asset was being used for. “Ought to have known” is slightly more off beam and needs clarity. I have tabled amendment 70 to give the Minister an opportunity to supply that clarity.