I asked my officials to scour the extensive House of Lords Select Committee report to find that quote. We were able to find expressions of concern that the Adult Learning Inspectorate still had about programme-led apprenticeships, particularly in  engineering. However, the suggestion that most apprenticeships do not involve an employer is just wrong. The hon. Gentleman will recall that when I put that suggestion to some of the individuals who gave evidence to the Committee, including the principals and the Campaign for Learning, they were staggered by it and indeed they said that they just did not recognise it. They said that apprenticeships must involve an employer.

I therefore think that there is confusion here, and I know what lies behind the confusion. As the hon. Gentleman said, we have sought to ensure that we have a statutory definition of apprenticeships in the apprenticeship review. While we do not include programme-led apprenticeships in the figures, we acknowledge that we need to make a clear distinction between programme-led apprenticeships in a college, which are sometimes undertaken as preparation for an apprenticeship, and full-blown apprenticeships. I think that the problem is confusion about descriptions, but it is not the reality of the experience of our apprentices as we understand it.