Schedule 1 - Children's Commissioner

Children Bill [Lords] – in a Public Bill Committee am 11:00 am ar 12 Hydref 2004.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Andrew Turner Andrew Turner Vice-Chair, Conservative Party 11:00, 12 Hydref 2004

I beg to move amendment No. 122, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 17, at end insert—

'(3) The availability or exercise of any power under this schedule shall not disbar the Local Government Ombudsman from considering a complaint about the performance of a local authority.'.

May I, too, extend my best wishes to you, Mr. Benton, in your chairmanship of the Committee?

I move swiftly to the amendment, which is probing. It was tabled because of my concern about exactly where the Government stand on the commissioner's power to investigate cases. We have heard today about clause 4, and the Minister said a moment ago that the commissioner will be able to consider individual cases that have wider ramifications, if there is no other body to which a reference could be made.

I tabled the amendment because, from my conversations with the local government ombudsman and my constituency experience in other contexts, I know that the ombudsman has difficulty in determining his jurisdiction when there may be overlapping jurisdictions. For example, if a parent has the right to go to a SENDIST, a special educational needs and disability tribunal—even though they may not have exercised the right—the local government ombudsman does not have the power to investigate a complaint that might have been referred to the tribunal.

Every complaint, in the end, is justiciable under administrative law. There have been cases that have established that just because something is justiciable—just because it can be taken to court—the local government ombudsman is not excluded from

investigating. I tabled the amendment because I was concerned about clause 4(1) and (2). Subsection (1) states:

''Where the Children's Commissioner considers that the case of an individual child raises issues of public policy . . . he may hold an inquiry into that case''.

The power to hold an inquiry into a case that raises issues of public policy means that such cases may not be investigated by the local government ombudsman, unless there is an exemption elsewhere in the Bill to allow that to happen.

I suspect that the Minister will refer me to subsection (2), which states that the commissioner

''may only conduct an inquiry . . . if he is satisfied that the inquiry would not duplicate work that is the function of another person''.

I suspect that she will say that for this purpose the local government ombudsman is another person. That is all very well as long as the boundaries are clear, and it is clear that no inquiry will be conducted into a case if the local government ombudsman has a role. If that is what she means by the subsection, I think I am content, although I should like to ask the same question with reference to the parliamentary ombudsman. However, if she means that there may be cases that the local government ombudsman may investigate but the Children's Commissioner may also investigate, there is a danger that the case load will fall to the commissioner when it might otherwise fall to the ombudsman.

The amendment is intended to make matters rather clearer. I recognise that it is not perfect, but it is clearer than clause 4(1) and (2).

Photo of Margaret Hodge Margaret Hodge Minister of State (Education and Skills) (Children)

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his probing amendment, which gives me the opportunity to make clear the importance of considering subsections (1) and (2) together. When the issue of the commissioner's independence was discussed in another place, there was concern that not providing the power to consider some individual cases would be seen as interference in the commissioner's independence. We were anxious to assure both Government and Opposition Members that we wanted an independent and strong commissioner. However, we did not want the commissioner to duplicate work undertaken by the ombudsman, the parliamentary ombudsman, the special educational needs and disability tribunal or many other bodies that could be mentioned. That is why we included subsection (2).

We recognised that there would be some individual cases that had a wider public significance and interest. Historically, the Victoria Climbie tragedy would be one such case. Some circumstances of that case, which were investigated by the local authority and social services inspectorate, as it was at that time, and could undoubtedly have been investigated by the ombudsman in terms of the administrative competence of some of those in the local authority, could have found their way through the judicial processes. However, the case raised issues of such wide significance for the protection of children that it warranted an inquiry into it and its wider ramifications. In subsections (1) and (2) we have

provided the commissioner the ability to decide for himself that an individual case has such wider ramifications and, in those limited circumstances, to establish an inquiry.

Photo of Andrew Turner Andrew Turner Vice-Chair, Conservative Party

In her explanation of subsection (2) the Minister has raised an issue of which I was not aware. She said that in the Victoria Climbie case, the social services inspectorate, who is a person, and the local government ombudsman, who is also a person, had the function but did not undertake the work. Is she saying that the commissioner may not investigate only when an investigation has been or is being conducted, or when in law a case could have been investigated? If it is the latter, the commissioner would not have been able to investigate most aspects of the Victoria Climbie case, because they were covered by the function of another person.

Photo of Margaret Hodge Margaret Hodge Minister of State (Education and Skills) (Children)

We must consider the two provisions together. Let us take the Victoria Climbie case as an example. At the time, there was a section 8 inquiry by the local authority's area child protection committee into the circumstances of her tragic death. However, the issues raised both in that inquiry and during the trial were of much wider public interest—hence the provisions in subsection (1). Although in that instance work had taken place elsewhere, the wider public policy ramifications of the particular case were such that it warranted a public inquiry. There may be circumstances in which that situation prevails again once we have the commissioner in place.

Subsection (2) ensures that the commissioner does not get involved in a range of individual complaints that other bodies such as the local authority ombudsman could investigate. However, when an individual incident or complaint has wider policy ramifications, the commissioner could instigate an inquiry into it. I hope that that makes it clear to the hon. Gentleman. It will be a matter of judgment for the commissioner, and in later clauses we suggest that the commissioner will want to discuss that with the Secretary of State. However, the provisions give the commissioner the essential independence, which people were worried that we were not giving, to pursue cases that have wider public policy implications.

Photo of Andrew Turner Andrew Turner Vice-Chair, Conservative Party

I am sorry, but that does not make it clear. That is because ''duplicate work'' implies doing work that has already been done and is the function of another person. In other words, the commissioner can do work that has not been done but is the function of another person. The problem is that if the power exists to go to another person—in this case the commissioner—the local government ombudsman is excluded from investigating a case. It seems that we are in a circle and the Minister has not yet got me out of it.

Photo of Margaret Hodge Margaret Hodge Minister of State (Education and Skills) (Children)

It is my understanding that the ombudsman would not be excluded, which is why subsections (1) and (2) of clause 4 need to be taken together. There may be instances where there are wider lessons to be drawn from a particular case and where

the ombudsman, CSCI or another body has already undertaken an investigation, which would warrant an inquiry by the commissioner. Where there are wider lessons to be learned, the commissioner will wish to do so. However, practically, where a complaint is not covered by a complaints mechanism, will the commissioner fill that gap? I think that that was the other part of the hon. Gentleman's question. The answer is: only where there is a gap that has wider ramifications.

Finally, to help the hon. Gentleman, we expect the commissioner to look at complaints procedures. If procedures do not cover the full interests or concerns of children, I have absolutely no doubt that, in investigating the working of those procedures, the commissioner will want to draw the Government's attention to a gap and that the Government will wish to respond to that.

Photo of Andrew Turner Andrew Turner Vice-Chair, Conservative Party

I thank the Minister for her reply. I shall ponder what she said and read it with great care. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Photo of Andrew Turner Andrew Turner Vice-Chair, Conservative Party

I beg to move amendment No. 119, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 19, after 'by', insert

'the United Kingdom Youth Parliament after consultation with'.

Photo of Joe Benton Joe Benton Llafur, Bootle

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment No. 6, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 19, at end insert—

'(1A) The Secretary of State must take reasonable steps to involve children and representatives of childrens' organisations in the process of appointment of the Commissioner'.

Amendment No. 191, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 19, at end insert—

'( ) The Secretary of State must take reasonable steps to involve—

(a) children from the areas which the commissioner serves; and

(b) such organisations concerned with children's rights and interests as he considers appropriate,

in the process of appointment of the Commissioner.'.

Amendment No. 120, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 22, after 'by', insert

'the United Kingdom Youth Parliament with the agreement of'.

Amendment No. 58, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 24, at end insert—

'(3A) During this time both the Commissioner and the Secretary of State will be responsible for ensuring that the children of England will be able to scrutinise and evaluate the performance of the Commissioner on their behalf.'.

Amendment No. 192, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 24, at end insert—

'(3A) During this time both the Commissioner and the Secretary of State will be responsible for ensuring that the children that fall within the remit of the Commissioner will be able to scrutinise and evaluate the performance of the commissioner on their behalf.'.

Amendment No. 121, in

schedule 1, page 36, line 29, after 'State', insert

', subject to the agreement of the United Kingdom Youth Parliament,'.

Amendment No. 124, in

schedule 1, page 37, line 37, after 'to', insert

'the United Kingdom Youth Parliament,'.

Amendment No. 128, in

clause 3, page 3, line 13, after 'the', insert

'United Kingdom Youth Parliament and'.

New clause 19—Non-availability of the United Kingdom Youth Parliament—

'If in relation to any responsibility under this Part the United Kingdom Youth Parliament is not able to act, the Secretary of State shall nominate a similar body largely representative (by election) of and comprised of persons under the age of 18.'.

Photo of Andrew Turner Andrew Turner Vice-Chair, Conservative Party

When the UK Youth Parliament came to lobby Parliament on the question of the Children's Commissioner and, I believe, visited the Minister, the Isle of Wight youth MP, Megan Thomas, spoke to me, along with two members of the Isle of Wight youth council. They asked who would appoint the Children's Commissioner. Should the person be appointed by the Government—whom, they felt, the Children's Commissioner would frequently have to criticise—or by a quango consisting of the usual suspects or, according to one's view, the great and the good? Would the commissioner be appointed by the NSPCC, Barnardo's, the Children's Society, the Association of Directors of Social Services and so on, or would he or she be appointed by a body that was representative of children? I had to say that I did not know who would appoint the commissioner, because I had not read the Bill then. However, I have now, and I know that the Minister wants to do it herself.

We have had youth councils on the Isle of Wight in many towns and villages for some time. For the past year we have had an Isle of Wight youth council as well, although it does not have powers and some would call it a talking shop. I should like to give an assurance that I do not regard the Isle of Wight youth council as a talking shop. Talking is a responsibility in itself, because it influences me and brings to my attention the issues that young people think are important locally. High on their list are public transport and bus fares, which the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre mentioned.

I have no doubt, however, that we can improve the responsibility of organisations by giving them a responsible task to undertake. That is why I tabled the amendments.

Amendment No. 119 would transfer the power of appointment from the Secretary of State to the United Kingdom Youth Parliament after consultation with the Secretary of State. Other amendments to the schedule would have a similar effect: amendment No. 120 sets out the terms and conditions of appointment by the Youth Parliament, and amendment No. 121 states that the Secretary of State may remove the Children's Commissioner from office only in consultation with the Youth Parliament. Amendment No. 124 is also significant in that respect because it states that the accounts of the Children's Commissioner should be sent to the Youth Parliament. In other words, there would be not only

responsibility but accountability to the Youth Parliament. Amendment No. 128 to clause 3(3)(a) would also require the commissioner's report to be sent to the Youth Parliament, which would therefore have a role in monitoring the commissioner's work.

I do not expect the amendments to have the Government's wholehearted and unequivocal support, but I want Ministers to explain for the record why the Youth Parliament or, as new clause 19 says, another body that is broadly representative and composed of persons under 18, should not have a role in the commissioner's appointment.

Photo of Tim Loughton Tim Loughton Shadow Minister (Children) 11:15, 12 Hydref 2004

My hon. Friend has tabled interesting and probing amendments and I shall be interested in the Minister's response to them. I am a big supporter of the youth councils and the Youth Parliament; earlier in the summer I went to the Youth Parliament meeting in Lancaster, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre, and had some exceedingly worthwhile and enlightening talks and discussions there, as I always do. I am a big supporter of the youth council in my town and of the county-wide youth council in West Sussex, where next week I will be taking part in local democracy week and in their day at County hall in Chichester. I shall be ritually humiliated by having to take part in game shows. ''I'm a celebrity get me out of here'' is one of the shows this year; last year it was Anne Robinson's quiz show. [Interruption.] I was not the weakest link, but the strongest, although I took a dive in the final round so that one of the Youth Parliament representatives could win rather than me, having wowed everyone with my knowledge of female pop stars' bottoms.

Perhaps we can now get to the serious points. The role of the Youth Parliament is interesting; even if the Minister does not give it the powers that my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight suggests in his probing amendment, it should be included in the process if it is to be taken seriously. Organisations such as the UKYP and youth councils should not be subject to tokenism. The Committee will agree that they play an important part in engaging with young people and including them in political processes.

Amendment No. 6 would insert an additional consideration in schedule 1 that, in appointing the commissioner, the Secretary of State, whatever influence the Minister may have on him, should take reasonable steps to involve children and representatives of children's organisations. That is a perfectly practical aspiration. Does the Minister agree with it? She nods her head, which suggests that she does. How will that be achieved in practice, and why is it not necessary to state it in the Bill?

Photo of Julie Morgan Julie Morgan Llafur, Gogledd Caerdydd

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the appointment of the Children's Commissioner for Wales was done very much in the way he has just described? Young people were involved in the process, although the final decision was left to the Minister with a recommendation from young people. Is he further

aware that the organisations used to involve young people included Voices, which is the Welsh Voices from Care, so that a wide range of young people were represented? Does he agree that that model could be looked at?

Photo of Tim Loughton Tim Loughton Shadow Minister (Children)

The hon. Lady has swiped the second part of my speech. I was going to refer to the different status of, and the considerations used to appoint, the existing commissioners. In Scotland the commissioner is appointed by the Queen on the nomination of the Scottish Parliament, so there the Parliament has more of a role and can take soundings. In Northern Ireland the commissioner is appointed by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister jointly and has a status that is independent of Government.

In Wales, as the hon. Lady points out, they have gone further in including as many people, particularly children, in the process as possible. The commissioner is appointed by the First Secretary of the National Assembly after taking account of the advice of the relevant committee, the views of relevant children and the advice of selection panel. That is all done independently of the Assembly. That is laid out in regulations 2 and 4 to the Children's Commissioner for Wales Act 2001. As it has been done that way elsewhere, I cannot see any harm in including in the Bill what I am sure is the Minister's intention. It is essential that the Children's Commissioner has the confidence of children. If he does not, his job will be

that much harder and he will not achieve some of the things that we need him to achieve and which are what the Bill is all about.

My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight made some interesting suggestions with regard to one body that should be integral to the process. On a more general point, I would like it—and it would strengthen the Bill—if the Minister agreed to add the consideration about taking all reasonable steps. We are not being prescriptive; we are saying that it must be a serious consideration in the appointment. That would send out a strong signal to children, children's groups and young people that they are not merely going to put in their nominations and be patted on the head and told, ''That is very interesting,'' but that they will have a role in choosing the person who is going to be their champion. I hope that the Minister, in the spirit of co-operation and positivity that we have enjoyed so far, will take that on board. It strengthens what we are trying to do.

Photo of Mr Hilton Dawson Mr Hilton Dawson Llafur, Lancaster and Wyre

I suspect that we are going to run out of time. Largely because somebody had the great good sense to invite two young people from the Lancaster and Wyre districts to join the young people's board, I am aware that arrangements are in place to ensure that young people are involved in the appointment of a commissioner and other issues. I hope that my constituents and others will be able—

It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned till this day at half-past Two o'clock.