Clause 329 - Interpretation

Part of Proceeds of Crime Bill – in a Public Bill Committee am 4:15 pm ar 24 Ionawr 2002.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr George Foulkes Mr George Foulkes Minister of State, Scottish Office, Minister of State (Scotland Office) 4:15, 24 Ionawr 2002

The hon. Gentleman may have been able to predict the reply to his amendment, but he was not able to predict who would give it.

As it is drafted, part 7 operates on the basis of the proceeds of any criminal conduct. No distinction is made between the proceeds of indictable offences or summary offences. As the hon. Gentleman is aware, this approach is consistent with that in parts 2, 3 and 4 in relation to the confiscation of proceeds following a conviction for a criminal offence. We believe that it is vital to have consistency across the Bill and that there should be no distinction between indictable or summary offences.

There are also real practical reasons why there should be no qualification to the type of offence caught by the provisions on money laundering. For example, at the stage at which a report would need to be made by someone in the regulated sector, he or she may suspect that the money used in a transaction was the proceeds of crime, without having any way of knowing the underlying predicate offence. The person would not know whether the initial offence that generated the laundered proceeds was an indictable or a summary offence. In addition, laundering the proceeds of a summary offence might be part of a larger pattern of other money laundering of which the person making the report was not aware. As we have said on many occasions, it is important that NCIS has as much information available to it as possible.

Restricting the reporting offence would limit the information that it receives.

As far as principal money laundering offences are concerned, the amendment would take us back to the position where having to identify the predicate offence to prove that money laundering was taking place acted as a barrier against successful prosecutions. That would be a negative step. We find it unacceptable in principle that the proceeds of some offences should effectively be exempt from the money laundering provisions. If conduct constitutes a criminal offence, as does summary as well as indictable conduct, we should also be able to prosecute the offender for laundering the proceeds of his or her crime or crimes.

As I have said, the classification of an offence is not the determining factor of whether proceeds are laundered. Even some summary offences can generate large amounts of proceeds and the Government cannot see any reason why those proceeds should not be caught by part 7. As the hon. Gentleman conceded, we rehearsed much of the argument in our debate on part 2, but it may be useful to repeat some helpful examples. Summary offences such as possession of video recordings of unclassified work for the purposes of supply, use of unlicensed premises for exhibition requiring a licence and offences relating to sex establishments can generate substantial proceeds. We cannot see any good reason why such proceeds should not be covered by part 7.

The Government are satisfied that the Bill as drafted adopts the right approach by applying the three principal money laundering offences to the proceeds of all crime, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment. He hinted that he would do so when he moved it, and he is presumably even more intent on doing so having heard my convincing arguments.