Clause 10 - Available amount

Part of Proceeds of Crime Bill – in a Public Bill Committee am 12:30 pm ar 20 Tachwedd 2001.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Dominic Grieve Dominic Grieve Shadow Minister (Home Affairs) 12:30, 20 Tachwedd 2001

Why would it be so difficult for a court to extrapolate and identify bona fide creditors? To put it in its most straightforward fashion, if a local grocer down the road has supplied groceries and is owed £5,000—it could be the balance between his own bankruptcy and business failure, and survival—a person who was not a preferential creditor would surely be readily identifiable and readily assessable as completely innocent. In those circumstances, are we to say, ``We're terribly sorry, but all that money will have to come to the state. You won't see a penny, even though we have just collected £5 million''? I find that odd. Why does the Minister believe that it would be so difficult to make such an assessment?

I am asking only for an equitable system that has regard to the fact that the state, which is in receipt of the money, has never been in a creditor's position—except insofar as the circumstances relate to tax provisions later in the Bill. There I see no reason why ordinary tax rules should not apply. Otherwise, however, the state is taking money from someone on the grounds that it was obtained unlawfully. In those circumstances, why should the state be the preferential beneficiary, as against people who have become victims?

I asked the Minister earlier who the victims in this category were. I suspect that the direct victims are those for whom a compensation order has been ordered by the judge on conviction. It is an important issue, and just because no one has thought about it, or because that has been the practice in the past, it does not mean that we should not think about it today.