The system will not necessarily be more centralised. Speaking personally, rather than as the Minister concerned, a move towards stronger regional collaboration and co-operation is a positive way of taking the matter forward. There are serious issues about the identity of individual forces and their own historic training functions, and it is important that any developments are carried out in a co-operative and collaborative way, not imposed from the centre. In my judgment, that is how matters will develop over time, and that is desirable. It is not the same as having a national system.

We have appointed as chief executive Chris Mould, who has substantial experience in national health service training. It is an interesting appointment and the police were involved in the appointment process, which is a positive move. The hon. Gentleman met the inspector dealing with training and I am delighted to hear that. If he would like to meet Mr. Mould and discuss with him the sort of issues that he is raising, I would be happy to facilitate that if it would be helpful.

We foresee an entrepreneurial and driving organisation with the legal power to set up committees on the routine functions of finance, general purposes and so on. However, the hon. Gentleman is right and it would be wrong if the organisation entered a quagmire.

On size, we thought it right to specify the minimum but to provide flexibility. I agree that we could have acted differently and not specified a minimum or maximum, or specified both, but we decided to specify a minimum to ensure a basic solid engagement of people. Setting a maximum might have restricted us in future and required changes to primary legislation.

The hon. Gentleman referred to points raised by the Police Federation on terms and conditions of service, pension arrangements and remuneration for seconded constables. I understand the problems, but it does not follow that a trainer must be a police officer, so it does not follow that the terms and conditions, pension arrangements and so on of a trainer must be those of a police officer. We are discussing the matter actively with the Police Federation and Unison.

With those explanations, I hope that the Committee will agree to schedule 4.

Question put and agreed to.

Schedule 4 agreed to.