Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill - Second Reading (2nd Day) – in the House of Lords am 3:32 pm ar 19 Medi 2025.
Baroness Berger:
Moved by Baroness Berger
At end insert “but that the Committee of the Whole House shall not commence before a report has been received from a select committee appointed by the House to consider certain aspects of the bill.”
Baroness Berger
Llafur
My Lords, I have spoken already about how my experience as a Member in the other place has made me very concerned about this Bill, and more determined that it must not be a cause of further harm to vulnerable people. Many unanswered questions about the Bill before us have been raised during the course of this important debate. This is why I have tabled the Amendment and the following Motion to hold a Select Committee before Committee of the Whole House begins.
This is a significant and complex piece of legislation by any definition. It demands a process that can withstand the weight, but it is clear that there are serious shortcomings, as both the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee noted in their reports last week. Indeed, I am concerned that the legislative process is being asked to compensate for the absence of robust policy-making before the Bill was published: no comprehensive review; no public consultation or prior engagement with professionals and other stakeholders; no green paper or white paper, which we would have seen had it been a government Bill—I understand the case made for why it is not a government Bill, but that has diminished what is before us today; and no published analysis of international experiences. Instead, Parliament has been asked to grapple with questions about implementation, safeguards and NHS implications without this groundwork, which we would usually turn to for a law change of this magnitude.
Back in March, Jill Rutter of the Institute for Government—which is neutral on the principle of assisted dying—said:
“We’re expecting Commons scrutiny to do far too much—things it simply can’t do … Commons scrutiny is being left to solve a whole range of problems it isn’t equipped to deal with”.
We have seen the dropping of key but expensive safeguards, such as the review by a High Court judge, and whole new clauses and schedules introduced to replace them with very little opportunity for thorough scrutiny.
It was a clear pattern in the other place that when significant concerns were raised that had not been anticipated, the response was often to add another delegated power. There are now, as we know, 42 delegated powers contained within the Bill: 42 areas where government will work out the detail later, with Parliament largely excluded from the conversation. The result is a Bill that is today substantially different from when the Bill Committee in the other place took evidence in January this year, but now with less clarity.
I do not wish to detain the House any longer than is necessary, but I have been asked many questions on the process about what is before us, which I will seek to address. My amendment ensures that we can have some evidence, expertise and insight on the Bill before us today. We need this information before we commence line-by-line scrutiny.
Noble Lords will have received a letter setting out a condensed list of witnesses that I and other supporters believe this House must hear from, including my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton and those who will bear the responsibility for delivering the Bill, should it pass, and setting out how they would use their delegated powers. These witnesses are to include the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the chief executive of NHS England, the Secretary of State for Justice and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury.
We must also take evidence from the professional bodies whose members will be asked to carry out the functions that the Bill sets out: the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of General Practitioners, the British Association of Social Workers and the Law Society.
We are, of course, not able to hear from serving members of the judiciary, but may hear from the former Chief Coroner of England, Thomas Teague KC, and Sir James Munby, President of the Family Division of the High Court. We must also ensure that we understand the impact of the Bill on our hospices and care homes, through Hospice UK, the Association for Palliative Medicine and Care England.
A previous suggestion of a Select Committee in parallel, alongside a Committee of the whole House, would not achieve—
Lord Kamall
Shadow Minister (Health and Social Care)
I apologise, I do not want to detain the House any longer than is necessary. Just to clarify, will all the evidence before the Select Committee be published?
Baroness Berger
Llafur
I am very grateful for the Intervention, and I was just about to come on to that, but I will answer that now. The answer is yes, absolutely. The intention is that all the evidence accumulated and amassed during that time will be published for everyone in the House to interrogate and consider in advance of us going into Committee of the Whole House. To confirm, this Select Committee cannot take place in parallel in order that we can receive evidence on vital parts of the Bill before we go into debate, so that we are not in the unenviable position of knowing what is wrong with the Bill but being unable to amend it.
My Motion provides that a Select Committee would be intended as a focused piece of work, hearing vital expert oral evidence, as I have just set out, rather than it being a more time-intensive open exercise. It may report by simply publishing that evidence before we go into Committee of the whole House, in order to inform our detailed consideration of the Bill. As I understand it from the clerks, the revised timetable allows the committee to hold six meetings over three weeks, with two panels of witnesses on each of the days, to begin the week commencing
We have, over the past two Fridays, shown the determination of your Lordships’ House to discuss the Bill in a considered and constructive way, and it is my strongest hope that we can continue to do that. If my Amendment is accepted, I do not intend to speak on the Motion that will follow, which contains the detail that I have just set out. I am grateful to my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton—
Baroness Watkins of Tavistock
Deputy Chairman of Committees, Deputy Speaker (Lords)
Is the list to give evidence that the noble Baroness has detailed finally determined or would it be possible for us to add the Royal College of Nursing with its 500,000 nurses?
Baroness Berger
Llafur
I thank the noble Baroness for her Intervention. As I understand it, it is within the gift of the Select Committee to determine who will be called for evidence. I have sought to set out the key people, but of course there will be many other suggestions. Obviously, conscious of the tight timetable, we will not be able to have an extensive list, but I am sure that the chair, when appointed, will consider the suggestion that has been made.
I return to expressing my gratitude to my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton for being prepared to work with me to reach an agreement that would allow the House to engage carefully with the substance of what is being proposed and the powers we are being asked to bestow on Ministers. I am grateful to the many noble Lords who have already indicated in their speeches their support for my Amendment and my Motion. I beg to move.
Amendment to the Motion agreed.
Motion, as amended, agreed.
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The clause by clause consideration of a parliamentary bill takes place at its committee stage.
In the Commons this usually takes place in a standing committee, outside the Chamber, but occasionally a bill will be considered in a committee of the Whole House in the main chamber.
This means the bill is discussed in detail on the floor of the House by all MPs.
Any bill can be committed to a Committee of the Whole House but the procedure is normally reserved for finance bills and other important, controversial legislation.
The Chairman of Ways and Means presides over these Committees and the mace is placed on a bracket underneath the Table.
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From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_paper
As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.
Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.
In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.
The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.
The House of Commons votes by dividing. Those voting Aye (yes) to any proposition walk through the division lobby to the right of the Speaker and those voting no through the lobby to the left. In each of the lobbies there are desks occupied by Clerks who tick Members' names off division lists as they pass through. Then at the exit doors the Members are counted by two Members acting as tellers. The Speaker calls for a vote by announcing "Clear the Lobbies". In the House of Lords "Clear the Bar" is called. Division Bells ring throughout the building and the police direct all Strangers to leave the vicinity of the Members’ Lobby. They also walk through the public rooms of the House shouting "division". MPs have eight minutes to get to the Division Lobby before the doors are closed. Members make their way to the Chamber, where Whips are on hand to remind the uncertain which way, if any, their party is voting. Meanwhile the Clerks who will take the names of those voting have taken their place at the high tables with the alphabetical lists of MPs' names on which ticks are made to record the vote. When the tellers are ready the counting process begins - the recording of names by the Clerk and the counting of heads by the tellers. When both lobbies have been counted and the figures entered on a card this is given to the Speaker who reads the figures and announces "So the Ayes [or Noes] have it". In the House of Lords the process is the same except that the Lobbies are called the Contents Lobby and the Not Contents Lobby. Unlike many other legislatures, the House of Commons and the House of Lords have not adopted a mechanical or electronic means of voting. This was considered in 1998 but rejected. Divisions rarely take less than ten minutes and those where most Members are voting usually take about fifteen. Further information can be obtained from factsheet P9 at the UK Parliament site.
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