– in the House of Lords am 11:39 am ar 1 Chwefror 2024.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Crossbench
11:39,
1 Chwefror 2024
To ask His Majesty’s Government, following reporting by The Sunday Times on
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
My Lords, I was concerned to see the allegations of bad practice by recruitment agents and unfairness towards British students. The Department for Education has launched an urgent investigation into university admission practices, including the behaviours of agents involved in recruiting international students. We will take action to ensure fairness between domestic and international students. Every student should be able to benefit from a world-class education.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Crossbench
My Lords, I am speaking in a personal capacity, but I also serve as chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, which is responsible for compliance with the public sector equality duty. This seeks to prevent discrimination and to ensure equality of opportunity. The Sunday Times investigation has revealed that as many as 15 of our 24 top universities are accepting through the back door foreign students at lower grades than those applied to UK students for the same courses. In effect, they are accepting cash for access. This is unfair at best, and discriminatory at worst, as UK students do not have those choices. I am extremely relieved to hear the noble Baroness’s response about ordering an urgent investigation. Can she give the House a timeline and say what measures they might take to penalise the institutions that are creating this lack of a level playing field for domestic students?
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
The noble Baroness makes important points. To be clear, our work will focus particularly on the unscrupulous behaviour of recruitment agents, and whether it is genuinely easier for international students than for domestic students to get places on undergraduate courses. However, there is no evidence that international students are displacing domestic students in England, where UK students make up 85% of the total population. We will be working on this as a matter of urgency, but I do not have as yet a definite timeline to give the noble Baroness.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Chair, Freedom of Information Advisory Panel (Lords), Chair, House of Lords Commission, Chair, House of Lords Commission, Lord Speaker, Chair, Restoration and Renewal Client Board Committee, Chair, Restoration and Renewal Client Board Committee
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is participating remotely.
Lord Campbell-Savours
Llafur
My Lords, as someone who benefited from free higher education in France, and in gratitude has remained a lifetime Francophile, I argue that the best way to develop sympathetic international relationships is to invest not by bringing the rich, unqualified undeserving into the United Kingdom just for the money, but bringing instead the brightest and the best from problematic parts of the world, even at our expense? Is that not one of the best investments we can make in developing international understanding?
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
Developing international understanding is important, but I imagine that universities would argue that there are a number of other potentially greater priorities in terms of the quality of the education they provide. We are very proud of our track record in terms of international students. Everyone, including the Government and universities, need to have a shared interest in upholding the quality of and confidence in the system.
Baroness Owen of Alderley Edge
Ceidwadwyr
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am still paying a student loan with an interest rate of 7.6%. I ask my noble friend the Minister: what are the Government doing to ensure that the contact hours offered by university courses represent value for money for all students enrolling on them?
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
The universities are obliged to provide information about contact hours to students before they go on a course, and there are websites that are UK-wide, such as Discover Uni, where potential students can compare, for example, contact hours and other metrics across courses. The OfS obviously regulates the quality of courses and, although it does not look specifically at contact hours, it does look at continuation rates from one year to the next, completion rates and progression to graduate jobs.
Lord Addington
Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol
My Lords, the Government have got themselves into a situation where universities are just very short of cash. When are we going to put enough money into the system so they are only taking foreign students because they are of the right quality, and not because it keeps the universities afloat?
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
I remind the House of the figures on university income. Over the last five years, it has grown by 24%, from £32.9 billion to £40.8 billion, and over that time UK fees have grown by 19%. The latest data on the staff headcount in universities, which was published very recently, showed another increase year on year, which does not look to me like a sector that is in trouble across the board.
Baroness Twycross
Opposition Whip (Lords), Shadow Spokesperson (Education)
My Lords, I am pleased to hear that the Government are taking seriously the Sunday Times allegations, but the truth is that even within the UK there is not a level playing field for admissions to university, with many young people from disadvantaged backgrounds still missing out. In a report from October 2023, the Sutton Trust said:
“Widening participation efforts appear to have been a case of ‘running to stand still’, and where those efforts have not been present, inequalities have worsened”.
What further action will the Government take to address this issue?
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
The Government share the noble Baroness’s commitment to making sure that disadvantaged students can access higher education. As the noble Baroness and the House know, our perspective is that there are opportunities at different levels of jobs, such as levels 4, 5 and 6—namely, undergraduate level. We have also put an enormous emphasis on degree apprenticeships so that loans should not be a barrier to access and, as the House knows, we will be introducing the lifelong loan entitlement, which will also unlock potential from those who do not currently access higher education.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Chair, Financial Services Regulation Committee, Chair, Financial Services Regulation Committee
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, I benefited from a free education and a grant at St Andrews University. Today I would not have a hope of getting into St Andrews University because, while they are free of tuition fees, there is insufficient funding. The result is that children from disadvantaged backgrounds cannot get a place at Scottish universities. The universities have responded to the lack of income from fees by bringing in lots of international students. This is a disgrace, and if the situation in England is bad, north of the border—under the SNP—it is extremely worse.
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
I have to agree with my noble friend. The figures are very different in Scotland. I mentioned that 85% of undergraduates in England are UK students. In Scotland, that figure is only 66% and has declined from 73% over the last five years.
Lord Pannick
Crossbench
My Lords, I declare an interest as the proud father of a daughter who has obtained places at university from this September. Can I ask the Minister to focus, in the department’s investigation of this matter, on the stress imposed on students—and, of course, their parents? It is a very stressful process, and it adds immeasurably to the stress if students cannot be confident that universities are applying a fair and transparent procedure.
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
Absolutely. We focus on that and a sense of confidence in the fairness of the system is vital. However, I would underline universities are autonomous institutions, and we would encourage them to take the initiative to address the noble Lord’s concerns.
Baroness Fox of Buckley
Non-affiliated
My Lords—
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe
Llafur
My Lords—
Lord Sandhurst
Ceidwadwyr
My Lords—
Baroness Williams of Trafford
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms (HM Household) (Chief Whip, House of Lords), Deputy Chairman of Committees
My Lords, we will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Fox, and then the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick.
Baroness Fox of Buckley
Non-affiliated
My Lords, I fear the problem is that we have lost sight of what universities are for. Does the Minister agree that it is a con when new university degrees are created as a substitute for high-quality skills training—the latest being estate agents’ degrees—while academic study is suffering? For example, there is the tragic closure of the music department at Oxford Brookes. Is not this university growth propelled by credentialing schemes, leading to the exploitation of overseas students who are effectively buying visas/degrees to pay for this ridiculous, non-academic growth?
Baroness Barran
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education, Lords Spokesperson (Equalities)
I think the noble Baroness brings together a number of different issues. However, the essence is: do we need high-quality degrees in this country that are accessible, particularly to those from disadvantaged backgrounds? There are areas where we have clear concerns. We have already expressed our concerns publicly about foundation years and have reduced the funding for classroom-based subjects, as well as regarding franchise provision.
Lord McFall of Alcluith
Chair, Freedom of Information Advisory Panel (Lords), Chair, House of Lords Commission, Chair, House of Lords Commission, Lord Speaker, Chair, Restoration and Renewal Client Board Committee, Chair, Restoration and Renewal Client Board Committee
My Lords, that concludes Oral Questions for today.
Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.