Lord Foulkes of Cumnock:

Moved by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

17: Clause 2, page 3, line 30, leave out “a licence” and insert “an economic licence issued pursuant to subsection (2) or a licence issued by another competent authority”Member’s explanatory statementThis amendment ensures consistency with the existing regulatory regime, namely the Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Licensing etc.) Regulations 2010, which provides for the granting of geological storage licences by the Oil and Gas Authority (now the North Sea Transition Authority). This amendment would enable private operators to develop merchant models to transport and store carbon dioxide in the longer term. This will also enable cross-border transport and geological storage of carbon dioxide to develop in time, without having to rely on exemptions being granted to allow private networks to develop.

My Lords, it is me again. In moving Amendment 17, I shall speak also to Amendments 18, 20 and 26.

Amendment 17 would create a licensing regime fit for the future because it would ensure that there was the necessary consistency with the existing regulatory regime—the granting of geological storage licences by the Oil and Gas Authority, now the North Sea Transition Authority, under the Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Licensing etc.) Regulations 2010—and that it did not operate in isolation.

The amendment would future-proof the regulatory system by enabling private operators to develop merchant models to transport and store carbon dioxide in the longer term. That would enable cross-border transport and geological storage of carbon dioxide to develop in time without having to rely on exemptions being granted to allow private networks to develop.

Designing a new licensing regime to develop successful at-scale transport and storage networks for CCUS is challenging, and the industry welcomes the Government’s rapid work to develop that in the Bill. As we have seen in other regulated industries, the first licences awarded are likely to be very different from those awarded a few years down the line, and the economics of the technology and market drivers will change too. Ofgem, as the economic regulator, will therefore need to amend and refine licences as necessary and collaborate with other regulators, such as the NSTA, which is already able to award licences to operators to store CO2 under the Energy Act 2008.

If a merchant arrangement developed where a CO2 store was run privately outside of the regulated network, would that not be something to encourage, provided that the safety of the CO2 stored was regulated as it is presently by the NSTA? It would be sensible for the legislative framework to be sufficiently flexible to facilitate that.

The United Kingdom has significant geological assets, with one-third of Europe’s entire offshore CO2 storage potential. That is equal to that of all the other EU states combined; in Europe, only Norway has more. This enormous potential to offer CO2 storage services to European and other countries presents the opportunity for the UK to become a global leader in CCUS, as it should be, and accelerate the global efforts to prevent CO2 emissions. The legislative framework should avoid any future barriers to cross-border transportation of CO2.

Amendment 18 would ensure that all types of permanent storage were included in the Bill. As with Amendments 14 and 16, I repeat that geological storage is not the only type of permanent storage of CO2. As the noble Baronesses, Lady Worthington and Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, said, it can also be achieved by types of usage where the carbon dioxide is chemically bound in a product and not intended to re-enter the atmosphere. The Bill as it is currently written allows only for geological storage, so the amendment is intended to recognise that there are other methods of permanent storage. However, it is important to qualify in this drafting that it applies only to carbon capture and usage where it is intended to be permanent and therefore subject to monitoring and verification.

Amendment 20 specifically includes other modes of transporting carbon dioxide, such as shipping. The pipeline will be the primary form of transporting CO2 but other modes of transport, including ship and rail, are already being developed in the UK and in other jurisdictions. The Bill must therefore be designed in such a way as to not limit future modes of CO2 transportation. CO2 transport by ship is almost certain to be part of the Scottish and south Wales clusters—the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is here today—and subsequent phases of other CCUS clusters.

The amendment would ensure that transportation by ship and all other means of transport were included in the Bill rather than leaving their inclusion to regulations. That would send a strong and positive signal to the investment community that there were no barriers to the UK’s development as a global CO2 shipping hub.

Amendment 26 is a point of clarification to ensure that if a licence termination event has arisen, the Secretary of State has the discretion to revoke the licence, as opposed to the current wording, which suggests that it would happen automatically. New regimes need a wee bit of flexibility, particularly when they are bedding down. The right—rather than the obligation—to terminate is a useful formulation when facing first-of-a-kind situations. I beg to move.

My Lords, I rise briefly, having attached my name to Amendment 23 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Lennie—who, of course, by the nature of these structures has not yet spoken on it—and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake of Leeds. I attached my name only to Amendment 23 but Amendments 27 and 35 form something of a package; they all express concern about requiring regulation so that licences must be only

“granted to fit and proper persons”.

As I was contemplating these amendments, I thought of the Oral Question earlier today in which my noble friend Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb took part, which looked at the situation we have now with the water companies in the UK. There is an obvious parallel with the crucial nature of the water companies and their fit and proper behaviour—and, without reopening that debate, their use of resources et cetera. If we are to go forward with carbon capture and storage at scale, it is obviously crucial that it is absolutely trustworthy and reliable, including in financial terms. We are talking about long-term investments for which we need real stability and certainty. The other parallel that occurred to me in contemplating this group was what happened with carbon offsetting—a phrase that has a bad odour in many parts of the world where we have seen a great deal of cowboy behaviour and many problems occurring.

Putting in this explicit “fit and proper persons” test, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, explained, is drawn from the National Security and Investment Act, is a very good parallel. If we are to securely store this carbon for the long term, in a manner that means the state does not have to step in to try to clean up a mess left by a private company, this is one way of attempting to ensure that that happens.

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to contribute on this set of amendments. I add my admiration and support for my noble friend Lord Foulkes, who has stepped into the breach admirably in the unfortunate absence of my noble friend Lady Liddell. I very much look forward to her return. I also add my thanks to the Minister for giving us time today to discuss this very important Bill; I think all of us recognise its significance at this time. Without reopening the debate from Second Reading, it is clear to us all that there are gaps. We need to take the opportunity to fill those gaps, given the state of crisis that the country is entering.

I want to speak to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Lennie, starting with Amendments 21 and 22. They seek to make it clear that a licence can be granted for transportation or storage, or both if wanted, but that a licence need not be granted for everything. The activities that Clause 7 relates to are

“(a) operating a site for the disposal of carbon dioxide by way of geological storage; (b) providing a service of transporting carbon dioxide by a licensable means of transportation”.

We have to acknowledge the importance of this section of the Bill. Indeed, the Climate Change Committee has referred to all of this area as a necessity, not an option, particularly as we move forward and technologies improve. As drafted, the Bill provides a single licence for both but, given that they are separate activities, we see no reason why individual licences could not be provided for each activity—even if it may be the case that most of the persons carrying out these activities carry out both.

A broad portfolio of technologies is needed to achieve deep emissions reductions, practically and cost effectively; carbon capture and storage is just one of them. In the International Energy Agency’s sustainable development scenario, in which

“global CO carbon capture and storage

“accounts for nearly 15% of the cumulative reduction in emissions, compared with the Stated Policies Scenario. The contribution grows over time as the technology improves, costs fall and cheaper abatement options in some sectors are exhausted. In 2070, 10.4 Gt of CO2 is captured from across the energy sector”.

This would provide more flexibility for a developing market, with the intention of driving down price within it.

We have already heard just how expensive carbon capture is and how, despite its importance for achieving clean energy, it has been rather slow to take off. According to the IEA, there were only around 20 commercial operations worldwide midway through last year. Commentators often cite carbon capture as being too expensive and unable to compete with wind and solar, given their falling costs over the last decade, but to dismiss the technology on cost grounds would be to ignore its unique strengths, its competitiveness in key sectors and its potential to enter the mainstream of low-carbon solutions. I am pleased that the Government have not done this. However, as we have made clear, we feel that not enough attention has been given to solar and onshore wind, in particular. It is important that we take whatever steps we can to make the market as attractive as possible and encourage licensing from fit and proper persons.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, has already spoken to the next set of amendments, particularly Amendment 23. We feel that the phrase “fit and proper”, having already had a usage in the National Security and Investment Act, is something that we should take very seriously. The aim of these amendments is to put the responsibility on the Secretary of State to personally deem the individual fit and proper.

Perhaps the greatest concern that we have to acknowledge is the environmental risk associated with long-term storage of captured CO2, as any gradual or catastrophic leakage would likely negate the initial environmental benefits of capturing and storing CO2 emissions. It is worth itemising those key risks, just so that we have them on record. First, there are technical hazards: we know that the construction of plants needed to capture and process CO2 can be complex. Whether for new facilities or retrofitting and enabling the separation of CO2 from other gases, there are inherent technical exposures in the CO2 separation process relating to the compression and cooling of gases flying through pipes and the use of chemical solvents, for instance.

Secondly, on fire and explosion, as we know, there are lifting, handling and accidental damage risks at carbon capture plants, as is the case at any construction site. When carbon-capture technology is retrofitted to operate in industrial plants or facilities in typically high-hazard locations such as power stations, the risk of accidental damage and subsequent fire and explosion risks to existing assets might be enhanced. As I have stated, the risk of leakage must clearly be the subject of much consideration as we go forward.

Business interruption is another risk that we have to acknowledge in the failure to meet the carbon goals as they are laid out. Pure carbon dioxide gas can be compressed so that it reaches its dense and supercritical phase. In some cases, it can instead be cooled, which transforms it into a liquid state. Mechanical failures or breakdowns affecting this stage of the process could lead to lengthy business interruptions for clients. If the captured CO2 cannot be transported, this may affect the emissions targets and carbon credits committed to by clients. Therefore, the need to look at all proper precautions is absolutely vital, and the persons tasked with doing this need to have the confidence of the whole sector.

Amendment 24, in the name of my noble friend Lord Lennie, would make regulations related to carbon dioxide transport and storage licence applications subject to the affirmative procedure. Surely it is sensible that Parliament has a full say in any regulations to ensure that licensing is done both to encourage carbon capture and storage and to ensure that it is properly safeguarded.

We have to see this in the context of an enormous possibility to create significant numbers of jobs—the estimate is 50,000 by as soon as 2030—across industry, power, transport and storage networks. It is absolutely essential that the confidence is there and that all the people who will be engaged in the work we intend to do are properly protected wherever possible.

My Lords, this group of amendments considers the licensing of carbon dioxide transport and storage, and I thank everyone for their contributions. I will speak to Amendment 25, in my name, which relates to the definition of “decommissioning costs”. Carbon dioxide transport and storage licence holders will be expected to establish decommissioning funds for each of their transport and storage networks. These funds will accrue money over the operational life of the network to pay for the expected offshore decommissioning and post-closure costs associated with the network.

As originally drafted, the Bill enables the Secretary of State to make regulations about the provision of security for decommissioning in relation to carbon storage installations. This is to ensure that regulations could require relevant persons to provide security for costs that reflect the full range of decommissioning obligations that arise in relation to carbon transportation and storage activities.

Regulations will provide the framework for how the decommissioning funds are to ensure that the funding is secure and available when it is required to pay for the decommissioning and post-closure obligations. The costs are likely to be those associated with the obligations that the licence holder will have under the permit, which could include costs associated with preparatory works between closure and the commencement of decommissioning activities and post-closure monitoring.

As noble Lords will be aware, a series of amendments has been tabled relating to the financing of the decommissioning of carbon storage assets, and I look forward to the forthcoming debate on those amendments. Should our amendments be accepted to apply these decommissioning fund powers to the new defined term “decommissioning costs”, explained in Amendment 70, the previous definition of “decommissioning and legacy costs” becomes redundant and should therefore be omitted from Clause 11.

I will move on to the amendments tabled by noble Lords in this group. Amendment 17, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, seeks to amend the scope of the prohibition on operating a CO2 transport and storage network without an economically regulated licence. Although there is an existing framework for the licensing of carbon dioxide storage activities, established under the Energy Act 2008, that Act provides for technical regulation to ensure the secure geological storage of carbon dioxide. It therefore does not provide any powers in relation to economic regulation.

The economic regulation and licensing framework for carbon dioxide transport and storage provided for in the Bill is intended to work alongside existing licence requirements in the Energy Act 2008. The economic regulation funding model allows a network operator, under the terms and conditions of a licence, to charge network users for delivering and operating the network—and the right to an “allowed revenue” that reflects its efficient costs and a reasonable return on the capital investment involved. In our view, this economic regulation model is appropriate for carbon dioxide transport and storage, given the natural monopoly characteristics of the infrastructure and assets. We recognise that, in the future, the market may evolve such that it may become appropriate for different licence types to be granted, with different conditions attached to those necessary first licences.

Amendment 18, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, seeks to enable other forms of storage to be part of carbon dioxide transport and storage networks. Economic regulation is not currently considered appropriate for networks established to transport carbon dioxide for usage purposes, as we discussed in relation to similar amendments in the previous debate.

Amendment 20, also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, aims to include provision for shipping, as well as any other method of non-pipeline transportation, within the scope of the economic licensing framework for the transport and storage of carbon dioxide. Subsection 2(3)(b) provides scope for alternative means of transportation to be included within the economic licencing framework, if that is appropriate in the future, by way of regulations. So the Government recognise the importance of non-pipeline methods of transporting carbon dioxide for storage to achieving decarbonisation across sectors of the economy.

However, although pipelines for the transportation of carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide geological storage sites currently have certain monopolistic characteristics, non-pipeline forms of transportation obviously do not share these attributes. Therefore, it is currently not considered necessary to economically regulate non-pipeline methods of carbon dioxide transportation, but we will of course keep this matter closely under review.

Amendments 21 and 22, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, seek to make it clear that a licence can be granted to cover either carbon dioxide transportation or storage, or both. In our view, the flexibility to license these activities both together and separately is important, and I reassure both noble Lords that this is already the intent and allowed for in the drafting. The first licences are expected to cover the full carbon dioxide transport and storage network. However, in future it may become desirable to separately license constituent parts of a network.

Clause 7 provides for the granting of licences in relation to activities described in Clause 2, and as drafted it allows for licences to be granted in respect of either one or both types of activity. Additionally, there is a power in Clause 8 to enable different licence types to be specified, should that become desirable in the future.

I now move to address Amendments 23, 27 and 35, also from the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. These amendments seek to place a responsibility on the Secretary of State to ensure that individuals obtaining a carbon dioxide transport and storage licence are “fit and proper”. These amendments place responsibility on the process of licence application, licence transfer and the special administrative regime. I support the aim of the noble Lord and noble Baroness to ensure the upmost standards for those wishing to engage in the transport and storage of carbon dioxide that will be needed to help us meet our net-zero target.

Of course, the granting of a licence pursuant to the Bill does not supersede or displace existing requirements for persons wishing to carry out activities relating to the storage of carbon dioxide to obtain the necessary storage permit. Such a permit may be granted where the relevant authority considers the applicant to be “technically competent” and “financially sound”, as set out in Regulation 7 of the Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Licensing etc.) Regulations 2010.

Clause 9(6) of the Bill provides powers for the Secretary of State to specify in regulations any considerations that should be taken into account before granting a licence, such as a successful application for a storage permit—which would also be required—or compliance with other preconditions that could constitute a fit and proper persons test. The safety of CCUS is underpinned by a strong regulatory framework that is in place precisely to mitigate any risks, with BEIS of course being guided by the relevant expert bodies in this matter. The department is currently developing licence terms that require the ultimate controller of the licensee to provide the necessary undertakings that it is a fit and proper person and anticipates testing this in advance of awarding any licence.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blake, for their Amendment 24 to Clause 9, which seeks to amend the parliamentary procedure applying to regulations made under this clause from negative to affirmative. Regulations which may be made under Clause 9 would be very much procedural in their nature, and it is the Government’s firm view that the negative procedure is in this case entirely appropriate. Regulations could include conditions that future licence applications may be required to meet. For example, regulations could be produced to stipulate particular considerations for the economic regulator to take into account when it grants licences. However, decisions by the economic regulator and the Secretary of State under this part would, in any event, be bound by the principal objectives and general duties in Clause 1, which we discussed earlier.

Finally, I turn to Amendment 26 from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, which seeks to clarify that the economic regulator may exercise discretion in whether to revoke a licence. Clause 17 is intended to ensure that persons with a material interest in the revocation of a carbon dioxide transport and storage licence are notified ahead of a licence being terminated. This facilitates, for example, a statutory transfer scheme being affected.

I hope I have been able to provide the necessary assurances to noble Lords and noble Baronesses. I thank them for helping us to test the robustness of the Government’s carbon dioxide transport and storage licensing frameworks and I hope that they will not press their amendments.

Perhaps I may come back to Amendment 27 and the associated amendments about a “fit and proper person”. Throughout his response, the Minister referred to the granting and awarding of licences at the initial point. However, Amendment 27 is concerned in particular with the transferring of licences. I drew a parallel with our water companies. Most of those have been through multiple ownerships, including hedge funds and companies based in overseas tax havens, et cetera. These companies have a similar nature and have been operated through continual financial transactions and financialisation. Could the Minister comment, either now or in writing, on how the Government see that ongoing process? Okay, you have checked out the person and granted a licence, but then, in a year or two’s time, the company might be bought by someone else and then again by someone else, including companies that may be very unclear. How will the Government keep control?

If the licence is transferred to another body, it will also have to be approved under the same process. You cannot just wake up in the morning and decide to transfer your legal obligations to somebody else who is not an appropriate, fit and proper person. So, of course, that will be taken into consideration.

I must say that the noble Baroness is wrong to provide the parallel with the existing water companies. I do not think that anybody is arguing that people who hold those licences are not fit and proper to do the job. There is a legitimate argument about levels of investment and how that money is being spent, et cetera. However, no one is arguing about their competence; the noble Baroness is trying to draw a very bad parallel there.

My Lords, I hope the Minister will forgive me for not understanding some of this, because it has raised a number of questions in my mind. If the CO2 is put, say, under the sea—as we have been talking about—who actually owns the CO2 once it has gone there? Who is liable for it and who has the legal right to the storage area itself? Given that most of these are created from the oil and gas that has been extracted, does that belong to the lease of the fossil fuel company that extracted them and does that last for ever? I do not understand how this works and where the liabilities land.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, said, if an organisation says, “I don’t want to do this any more”, there is no obligation for anybody else to take it on—so there will be a legal limbo. Perhaps the Minister could explain how this licensing works within that context. It seems to me that the Crown Estate will come into this somewhere, but maybe the Minister could enlighten me. I apologise again, because I should know the answer to all of these questions.

I am happy to confirm the legal detail of the system to the noble Lord in writing, but my understanding is that the operator of the site would bear the responsibility. That is precisely why we have built in the relative decommissioning costs. The fund will have to be established and the operator will have to show that the ability is there to decommission the relevant pipe work, et cetera. I assume that that assurance and other long-term effects will also be built into that condition, but I will be very happy to confirm that in writing to the noble Lord.

That would be very useful.

My Lords, I say first of all that I agree with every word that my noble friend Lady Blake said in her excellent speech, particularly that she is looking forward to the return of my noble friend Lady Liddell—so am I. After all, on this issue she is the master and I am the apprentice, as has been fairly obvious today.

The Minister has again given us a very detailed and helpful reply. However, what worries me slightly is that I still think it strange that those involved in the commercial operation of this—the CCSA members and the CCSA itself—have different interpretations of the draft of the Bill from the officials advising the Minister. I hope that, between now and Report, there can be some discussions to see whether all those in the industry accept the Minister’s explanations today. Otherwise, we can look forward to further amendments on Report. In the meantime, I withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 17 withdrawn.

Amendments 18 to 20 not moved.

Clause 2 agreed.

Clauses 3 to 6 agreed.

Clause 7: Power to grant licences

Amendment 21 not moved.

Clause 7 agreed.

Clause 8: Power to create licence types

Amendment 22 not moved.

Clause 8 agreed.

Clause 9: Procedure for licence applications

Amendments 23 and 24 not moved.

Clause 9 agreed.

Clause 10 agreed.

Clause 11: Conditions of licences: general