Clause 22 — Power to prohibit or restrict sales from vending machines

Health Bill [ Lords] (Programme) (No. 2) – in the House of Commons am 6:48 pm ar 10 Tachwedd 2009.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Sylvia Heal Sylvia Heal Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments 11B to 11G.

Photo of Gillian Merron Gillian Merron Minister of State (Public Health), Department of Health

All the amendments were passed in the other place yesterday. They are consequential to the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend Mr. McCartney, which the House accepted on Report on 12 October. My right hon. Friend and Bob Russell tabled a series of amendments on vending machines on Report. Of these, only the substantive amendment was considered and accepted by the House. Amendments 11A to 11G make the necessary consequential changes.

As my right hon. Friend clearly explained to the House, the aim of the amendments was to remove the power to restrict sales of tobacco from vending machines. That meant that the national authorities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be able to make regulations only to ban tobacco sales from vending machines completely. As I have previously explained, vending machines are the usual source of cigarettes for 10 per cent. of 11 to 15-year-olds who say that they smoke-some 200,000 young people in 2007. These are the new recruits that the tobacco industry needs, to replace those who die. Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have heard many powerful arguments on the need to act, given that some two thirds of current and past smokers say that they started smoking regularly before the age of 18, and that smoking kills more than 80,000 people every year.

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health made it clear in his speech on Third Reading that the will of the House would be respected and that the Government would not seek to overturn the amendment in the other place. The amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield and amendments 11A to 11G were considered in the other place and were accepted. The consequential amendments replicate the amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend on Report, but which were not reached. They ensure that the vending machine provisions are workable and achieve the full effect intended by the House. They also ensure that the provisions in clause 23 for Northern Ireland align with those in clause 22 for England and Wales. I can confirm that Ministers in both Wales and Northern Ireland are also committed to prohibiting the sale of tobacco from vending machines in accordance with the amendments.

Photo of Gordon Marsden Gordon Marsden Llafur, Blackpool South

I want to probe my hon. Friend on the proposal made in the other place yesterday by our noble Friend Baroness Thornton. My constituency has one of the manufacturers, Duckworth Blackpool, that will be affected by the process. It employs 30 people. Our noble Friend was asked yesterday what proposals there might be for compensating those going out of business and for the jobs lost as a result. She said that she did not know the answer, but would let the House know. I wonder whether my hon. Friend can provide any more information on that.

Photo of Gillian Merron Gillian Merron Minister of State (Public Health), Department of Health

I understand why my hon. Friend raises such an important point. As is usual, compensation will not be payable. I realise that that will be disappointing to his constituents, but I hope the fact that the measure will not come into effect until 2011 will be of some assistance. It would also be a wise entrepreneur, I believe, working in the tobacco industry who looks to broaden their activities in the current climate in which fewer and fewer people are smoking.

I have explained that the Government are fully committed to protecting our children from the damage caused by smoking and to supporting those who want to quit. The prohibition of sales of tobacco from vending machines represents a major step forward in achieving that aim.

Photo of Sylvia Heal Sylvia Heal Deputy Speaker

Order. May I say that I allowed some laxity in the previous intervention, but I must point out that the scope of this debate is very narrow indeed.

Photo of Mike Penning Mike Penning Shadow Minister (Health)

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Let me say from the outset that I fully understand the Government introducing the amendments. They bring Northern Ireland and Wales into the legislation. However, what a mess the Bill was in when it left this House as a result of the speed of the Government's U-turn on vending machines during its passage, particularly on Report!

In Committee, my hon. Friend Mr. O'Brien and I tabled amendments that would have restricted access to vending machines, yet the Government opposed those on the basis that the Secretary of State wanted to keep control of the provisions on vending machines. The Government did not at any stage of the Bill propose a total ban-until the last minute when the Whips clearly did a deal with Mr. McCartney, resulting in the obvious mess in the Bill as it went to the other place.

There, the noble Baroness Thornton said that this House had voted on a free vote on the ban on vending machines, but that was not the case. A free vote could have taken place only if there were a Division on that basis. A free vote was allowed for the Opposition, but it was certainly not a free vote for Labour Members, yet we had called for one for all the smoking debates.

With that in mind, when does the Minister expect to introduce the regulations, which will be subject to an affirmative resolution? When that happens, will there be a free vote on both sides of the House, which is exactly what should happen? We can certainly confirm that if we come into power, we will allow a free vote on all the smoking regulations. There will have to be an affirmative resolution, and let us hope that there is a free vote for the whole House.

The seven consequential amendments are understandable because of the mess the Bill was in when it went to the other place. We accept the amendments even if we are unhappy about how they were handled.

Photo of John Pugh John Pugh Shadow Minister (Health), Shadow Minister (Treasury)

We have no difficulty at all with these consequential amendments.

Photo of Gillian Merron Gillian Merron Minister of State (Public Health), Department of Health

With the leave of the House, Madam Deputy Speaker. Protecting young people from the damage and death caused by tobacco is indeed a very serious issue, which the Government are determined to address. Tobacco vending machines, we believe, reflect a time when shops closed early and people were not able to purchase cigarettes out of hours, which is no longer the case. We think it right and proper to give effect to the will of the House because those vending machines exist for the convenience and temptation of those who smoke and as a means of recruiting new young smokers. As I have said, prohibiting the sale of tobacco from vending machines will be a major step forward in tackling the very serious problem of children and young people having access to tobacco and in supporting those who want to quit. I should also say that the measure brings the UK into line with many other countries, including 16 other EU states, that have banned the sale of tobacco from vending machines.

Photo of Gillian Merron Gillian Merron Minister of State (Public Health), Department of Health

I think I am about to come on to the issue that the hon. Gentleman is likely to raise, but I will give way.

Photo of Mike Penning Mike Penning Shadow Minister (Health)

The Minister is arguing for banning vending machines in a way that suggests that that was the Government's proposal all along, so I repeat that at no stage-on Second Reading, in Committee or on Report-did a Minister support what the she is saying now. Why have the Government changed their mind so quickly?

Photo of Sylvia Heal Sylvia Heal Deputy Speaker

Order. Before the Minister responds, let me remind the House again that this is not an opportunity to re-run the proceedings of an earlier debate. I said just a few minutes ago that the scope for debate on these amendments is very narrow.

Photo of Gillian Merron Gillian Merron Minister of State (Public Health), Department of Health

I will take your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Let me repeat a point made in an earlier discussion-that the evidence for action is clear; the issue is how fast we go and how far. Mike Penning suggested that the will of the Commons was not clear. I take issue with that. As to the vote on vending machines on Report, it is clear that the House determines its own rules and the Speaker presides over the House to ensure that those rules are followed. The Speaker ruled on the day; the record of the decision is in Hansard; the amendment was accepted-so that acceptance reflects the will of the House.

Photo of David Taylor David Taylor Llafur, North West Leicestershire

I think that the reaction on the Opposition Front Bench is a little churlish. Speaking as the chair of the all-party group on smoking and health, I welcome the Government's living up to what they said they would do on Report. This is the right thing to do: it is the next natural step in a sensible tobacco control policy, and I congratulate the Government on implementing it.

Photo of Gillian Merron Gillian Merron Minister of State (Public Health), Department of Health

I accept with thanks my hon. Friend's comments and congratulations.

On the regulations, it would seem wise to await the decision of both Houses before publishing them. By their very nature, however, they will be brief and very direct. They will indeed be subject to affirmative resolution. Whether or not it is a free vote is entirely a matter for the Whips on both sides of the House.

The consequential amendments will ensure that the vending machine provisions are workable and will achieve the full effect intended by the House.

Lords amendment 11A agreed to .

Remaining Lords amendments agreed to.