Orders of the Day — Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

– in the House of Commons am 1:10 pm ar 13 Hydref 2005.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee 1:10, 13 Hydref 2005

I beg to move,

That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2005, which was laid before this House on 10th October, be approved.

This is the third such application under these provisions. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, when he was Home Secretary, laid an order for the proscription of 21 international terrorist groups under part 2 of the Terrorism Act 2000 on 28 February 2001, which was approved by the House. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, when he was Home Secretary, similarly laid an order for the proscription of a further four organisations on 28 October 2002, which was also approved by the House.

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has this week introduced the Terrorism Bill for the purpose of further strengthening the United Kingdom's counter-terrorist powers. The new powers in the Bill reflect the importance that the Government place on dealing with those who seek to overthrow legitimate Governments through violent means. The attacks on London in July and the subsequent atrocities in Egypt and Bali have shown us all the importance of continuing the fight against terrorism, and the importance of not only breaking up terrorist groups, but the networks of organisations that support them and give them succour.

Under part 2 of the Terrorism Act 2000, the Secretary of State has the power to proscribe any organisation that he believes "is concerned in terrorism". That is the phrase under the Act. An organisation is concerned in terrorism if it commits or participates in acts of terrorism, if it prepares for terrorism, promotes or encourages it or is otherwise concerned in it. If the Secretary of State is satisfied that a particular group meets those criteria of being concerned in terrorism, he then has the power to proscribe it.

In addition, there are other criteria that can be taken into account. These additional factors include the nature and scale of an organisation's activities, the specific threat posed to the United Kingdom, the threat to British nationals overseas, the extent of the organisation's presence in the UK and, importantly, the need to support other members of the international community in the global fight against terrorism. I think that we would all acknowledge that we are now facing terrorism with a global reach in many different countries.

Proscription means that an organisation is outlawed in the UK and that it is illegal for it to operate here. The 2000 Act makes it a criminal offence to belong to, to support or to display support for a proscribed organisation. The Act allows the police to seize all property of that proscribed organisation.

I acknowledge that this is a tough power. It has the effect of outlawing previously lawful activity. It is right that it has to be given effect by affirmative resolution in both Houses. It is an important power to exercise. The Home Secretary has made it clear that he takes such decisions only after the most thorough scrutiny of all the intelligence put forward by the security and intelligence agencies.

We believe that this power plays a key role in creating a hostile environment for terrorists and their supporters. It also deters international terrorist organisations from coming to this country in the first place. Equally importantly, it sends out a strong signal throughout the world that the UK rejects such organisations and their claims to legitimacy.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Spokesperson (Economy and Taxation; Education & Skills; Miner's Compensation; Regeneration; Trade & Industry)

I question the Minister specifically on the Uzbek organisation that appears in the list. According to the right hon. Lady's own note, it has as its principal aim the holding of elections in Uzbekistan. It does not organise or recruit in the United Kingdom. It was involved in the Andijan uprising in May, which left hundreds of civilians dead. They were killed not by the Islamic Jihad Union but by the brutality of the Karimov regime that it is trying to overthrow. Should we not tread very carefully before proscribing an organisation that has less blood on its hands than a Government with whom we still maintain diplomatic relations?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. I took a particular look at the organisation to which he refers. The indication, given the information, was that it was perhaps less active here than many of the other organisations that are set out in the explanatory memorandum. I have been assured that the group would cause a threat to British interests overseas in particular. It is always open to any of us to seek to weigh the balance between the actions of one group or another. As for the organisations that are set out in the list, I am saying that the information of the security and intelligence services has been sufficient, when scrutinised carefully by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, for him to reach the decision that proscription is appropriate. I will deal with the provisions on appeal, which are extensive for any organisation that finds itself proscribed.

Photo of Dominic Grieve Dominic Grieve Shadow Attorney General

Reading the note as carefully as I could, it appeared to me that in respect of the Islamic Jihad Union—I would be grateful if the right hon. Lady were to clarify the matter—it was not its resistance to the Karimov regime that was causing the Government difficulties, but the fact that it was associated with direct acts of terrorism in third countries such as Kazakhstan. Can the Minister confirm that that is the case?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

There is a range of activities that all these organisations will be undertaking. We have attempted in the explanatory memoranda to outline, as far as we can, the activities that have taken place. As for the Islamic Jihad Union, in March 2004 there was an explosion in Uzbekistan that killed nine people who were involved in the construction of portable improvised explosive devices. Over the following three days, there was a series of shoot-outs and suicide bombings that were carried out in Tashkent, Bokhara and Uzbekistan, leaving about 25 dead and 35 wounded. I also asked about the impact on British interests to satisfy myself that the order was an appropriate way forward.

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has carefully scrutinised the information that is available to him. We are being told by the security services that the organisations on the list are of particular concern at this time. That is why the decision has been reached.

Photo of Julian Lewis Julian Lewis Shadow Minister (Defence)

I do not have any difficulty with what the Minister has said so far. For the purpose of clarity, I ask her what the situation is with groups such as the Al Aqsa martyrs brigades, which, for all I know, may be on a previous list. There is no evidence of them causing a direct threat to civilians in the United Kingdom, but they have an overt record of blowing up buses and finding other ways of killing civilians in Israel. Is it the case that that alone is enough to qualify an organisation of that sort to go on the list, given that British citizens often travel to Israel?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

I have tried to outline that the first requirement is that a group should be concerned in terrorism, and that can be promoting, encouraging or taking part in acts of terrorism. There is a series of other factors that the Secretary of State can take into account, and some will have greater weight than others. One of those factors is supporting the rest of the international community to tackle terrorism. Where groups are active in other countries it is vital that we act together to ensure that we do as much as we can to fight global terrorism. That is one of the factors that are taken into account.

Photo of David Heath David Heath Shadow Leader of the House of Commons, Shadow Spokesperson (Cabinet Office)

I want to return to the Islamic Jihad Union. It is the organisation that causes some of us concerns because of the country in which it is clearly operating. Can the Minister reassure me that her primary channels of information come from British intelligence and not from Uzbek sources?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

The information that we receive is from our own security and intelligence services. Obviously, we have very good relationships with intelligence services throughout the world, and it is right that we should also take account of that information. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, in his careful scrutiny of the evidence available to him, will have taken into account a range of different sources in relation to each of these decisions.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Spokesperson (Economy and Taxation; Education & Skills; Miner's Compensation; Regeneration; Trade & Industry)

Have the Government either sought or received intelligence from the Uzbek Government on this matter?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

I can give hon. Members the reassurance that they are seeking, as the case on the IJU is based on our own intelligence.

Photo of Tobias Ellwood Tobias Ellwood Opposition Whip (Commons)

I wanted to pick up the need to work together. It is all very well the UK keeping lists of outlawed terrorist organisations up to date, but the Minister referred to Bali, and yesterday was the anniversary of the first major bomb there. Indeed, there was another attack by the same group only a couple of weeks ago. Does it not undermine the work that we are doing here if countries such as Indonesia do not even outlaw Jemaah Islamiyah, the group responsible? Will the Minister work more closely with the Foreign Secretary to make sure that we combat terrorism globally? Our work here is undermined if we travel abroad and are confronted by the very terrorists whom we are trying to prevent from attacking us in the UK.

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

The hon. Gentleman makes an important and fair point. When we face the threat of international terrorism, it is incumbent on all of us across the world to try to work together as closely as we can. Different countries have different proscription regimes—they are not all identical to ours. Some of the groups on our list are proscribed in other countries, but some are not. It is important that the Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary work closely together and that we work with other Governments to give all our citizens as much security as possible in the dangerous world situation that faces us.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South

Do other EU countries include the IJU on a proscribed list? Concerns about the Uzbek Government would prompt many of us to prefer to see them on the list rather than groups that oppose them, given that they have carried out acts of cruelty and torture against their own citizens. Have the British Government received representations from the Uzbek Government and other Governments about the inclusion of organisations on the list? It can be argued that many of them display anti-western attitudes, so what representations have been received from the United States?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

The IJU is proscribed by both the US and the UN, so other countries have concerns about that organisation. As I said, the intelligence on which the Home Secretary reached his decision was from our own sources, so I hope that that reassures Members that the matter has been scrutinised properly and that this is a proper decision. I shall come on to the appeal provisions, which are robust. If groups feel that they have been wrongly proscribed they have recourse to a review.

Photo of Helen Goodman Helen Goodman Llafur, Bishop Auckland

Before you come on to that point, I would like to ask you another question about the Uzbeks.

Photo of Alan Haselhurst Alan Haselhurst Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Ways and Means

Order. The hon. Lady must correct her use of language. She is not asking questions of me, but of her right hon. Friend the Minister.

Photo of Helen Goodman Helen Goodman Llafur, Bishop Auckland

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I am sure that what the Minister said about the IJU is correct, but after the uprising in Andijan people were massacred by the Government, and others were tortured into saying that they belonged to radical Islamist groups. How will the Minister make a judgment in practice about whether people truly belong to the IJU, which is to be proscribed, or have simply been tortured into claiming that they do?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

If an organisation is proscribed, anyone seeking either to become a member or to give it support would be guilty of a criminal offence. Prosecution would be a matter for the courts, and it would have to be brought properly. Evidence would be tested and there would be an opportunity for all the issues raised by my hon. Friend to be explored within the criminal justice system, as would happen with any other kind of offence. There would be an opportunity to discover whether evidence had not been obtained properly or did not stand up under scrutiny or cross-examination. I accept the points made by several hon. Members that other people may have carried out acts that we would all find abhorrent. However, we are talking about whether particular organisations pose such a threat that they should be proscribed. The fact that other organisations may be involved in other activities does not mean that the listed organisations should not be subject to a proscription order.

Photo of Stewart Hosie Stewart Hosie Shadow Spokesperson (Women), Shadow Spokesperson (Home Affairs), Shadow Spokesperson (Treasury)

A number of organisations on the list have UK-based supporters but no official representation here. Has an assessment been made of the extent of their support and do any of them have large-scale support networks in this country? Do any of them pose a particular threat and do any particular organisations receive a disproportionate amount of support, help, succour or money from the UK for their activities abroad?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

The hon. Gentleman is pressing me to stray into inappropriate areas, given the risk of revealing intelligence. It would be invidious to single out organisations as being strong or weak, as we are engaged in a fight against terrorism. The information in the explanatory memorandum attempts to be as clear as possible about the extent of activity. Most of the organisations do not have a formal representative presence, but a number of people in this country support them. That is as far as I can go in trying to answer the hon. Gentleman's question.

We are seeking to proscribe the 15 international terrorist groups that appear in the explanatory memorandum. We have sought a shortened timetable to try to ensure that the power is as effective as possible by not allowing the proposed groups time to move resources out of the country or to change their names to evade the powers in the Terrorism Act. If we support the order, it will go to the other place this afternoon and will come into effect tomorrow. I accept that that is a short time scale, but there are genuine reasons for it. Hon. Members will note that most of the groups are active in south Asia, specifically Pakistan, but Ansar Al Sunna and Ansar Al Islam are active in Iraq. The Libyan Islamic Fighting group and the Groupe Islamique Combattant Marocain mainly target their activities against their respective countries, and Al Ittihad Al Islamia is based in east Africa. A range of organisations are therefore subject to the order. It is clear from the evidence put before the Home Secretary that all those groups are active in terrorism and have linkages to the network of organisations associated with al-Qaeda. They have been chosen because the security and intelligence agencies have advised us that they are the highest priority at the present time. The Government have every confidence in the work of the agencies and we think that they are doing an excellent job in extraordinarily difficult circumstances.

Photo of Tobias Ellwood Tobias Ellwood Opposition Whip (Commons)

What co-ordination is there between the security services? To develop my earlier question, how much co-ordination is there between the various intelligence organisations and how can we secure a global agreement about which organisations should be outlawed?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

As well as receiving advice from the individual security agencies, the Home Secretary receives advice from a working group that brings together all the agencies so that they can share information and provide him with advice. Those agencies are mainly home agencies but, as I said earlier, there are extremely close relationships between security agencies across the world, which have become even closer in the light of the attacks that we face. I am confident that there is better information sharing now than there has been at any time. Information sharing and working together are clearly a key part of our policy.

Photo of John Martin McDonnell John Martin McDonnell Llafur, Hayes and Harlington

It would be helpful if, without endangering sources and so on, the Government published more information about the history of the funding of those organisations. In particular, knowing the current and past funding of those organisations by states would help us to make a judgment about individual organisations, as we would know where their funding came from in the past and what association they have had with state funding.

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

I understand why my hon. Friend wants to see that information, but I cannot undertake to publish the details. We have tried to be as open as possible in the explanatory memorandum, and I will re-examine the matter.

Photo of Simon Hughes Simon Hughes Shadow Attorney General, Party Chair, Liberal Democrats

Will the Minister tell us whether all the organisations in the order are on the UN list of proscribed organisations?

Photo of Simon Hughes Simon Hughes Shadow Attorney General, Party Chair, Liberal Democrats

Will the Minister indicate whether any organisations on the UN list are not included in today's list?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

I am not aware of the detail on that point. Some organisations may be on the UN list, but not on our list. The organisations in the order are those that the Security Service tells us are currently of most concern. If we were to proscribe every single organisation in every single part of the world, our list would include many scores of organisations. We have tried to prioritise, but I am more than happy to go through the list and try to provide the hon. Gentleman with that detail after the debate.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South

I understand the sensitivity surrounding the extent to which the Minister can discuss what we currently know about those organisations. On the urgency of the situation and the need to pass the order today and take action quickly, will the Minister undertake to return to the House to set out exactly what assets and resources have been seized under the order, because it would be helpful to know whether real assets and resources have been identified? If the list is passed urgently, it must be followed by evidence of the demonstrable case for that urgency.

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

I am pleased that my hon. Friend has acknowledged that, where people have assets, it is important to take urgent action to ensure that those assets are not removed and that organisations do not attempt to change their names, which means that they would no longer be proscribed under the current legislation—we shall attend to that point in the Terrorism Bill, because that loophole must be closed.

My response to my hon. Friend's request for further information is the same as my reply to my hon. Friend John McDonnell and Simon Hughes. I will do my best to see whether we can provide such information, but the issue must be placed in the context of the current security situation. I do not want to release information that could advantage organisations whose stated aim is to damage this country. If it is possible to give hon. Members background and context, I shall seek to provide them, but I must draw a line and make sure that people do not know our tactics and strategy.

Photo of Julian Lewis Julian Lewis Shadow Minister (Defence)

The Minister is being extremely generous in giving way. A few moments ago, she said that all the organisations on the new list are believed to have some link with al-Qaeda. Reverting to my earlier question about organisations such as the al-Aqsa martyrs brigades, does that mean that she is not putting on the list organisations that are a threat to British tourists abroad, but which are not known to have links with al-Qaeda?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

The criteria are not as rigid as the hon. Gentleman suggests. The groups on the list are of the highest priority at this time, but the list is not exhaustive and is kept under constant review. If we receive advice that another organisation has become a serious threat, we will revisit the matter. The criteria around groups that are or are not connected with al-Qaeda are not rigid, and if organisations pose a serious threat to the people of this country, either here or abroad, we will review the matter.

The appeal system is important. An organisation that has been proscribed or an individual who believes that he has been affected by a decision to proscribe has the right of appeal. In the first instance, the appeal is to the Home Secretary. If the Home Secretary confirms the decision to proscribe, a further appeal may be made to the Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission, which will review whether the legal criteria apply and whether the Government and the Home Secretary have properly exercised their powers. The POAC tribunal consists of three senior judges, who are cleared to see sensitive material and who can see the intelligence used by the Home Secretary as the basis for his decision against a particular group. In closed sessions, a special advocate may be appointed in accordance with our usual arrangements.

As I have said, the Government's prime task is the protection of the public. We want to take whatever action is necessary to ensure the safety of our whole community, irrespective of background, and the powers will be used proportionately and effectively. I have issued a certificate to the effect that I consider that the provisions, which are proportionate and necessary, comply with our obligations under the European convention on human rights. The groups that we are discussing are involved in terrorism and seek to promote the poisonous ideologies of al-Qaeda and its acolytes.

Photo of Simon Hughes Simon Hughes Shadow Attorney General, Party Chair, Liberal Democrats

Have any of the 25 organisations that have been proscribed to date appealed either to the Home Secretary or, beyond that, to the commission, and if so with what result?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

Five appeals were initially made to the Home Secretary, who dismissed them all. Three appeals went forward to the tribunal, where they were withdrawn without being heard. I am not prepared to go into any detail about those organisations.

I commend the order to the House and hope that hon. Members will support it this afternoon.

Photo of Dominic Grieve Dominic Grieve Shadow Attorney General 1:37, 13 Hydref 2005

I reassure the Minister that the official Opposition will support the order. These are difficult areas, and hon. Members have highlighted the point that it is no light matter for this House to proscribe organisations that may want to set themselves up in this county or that are already operating in this country, if they can be shown to have legitimate aims.

I suggest that a common-sense distinction can easily be made between organisations that seek political change in their country—they might even support freedom fighters—and organisations that support terrorism. The random slaughter of innocent individuals can play no part in the process of trying to bring about political change. The hallmark of the various organisations identified by the Government is that they have engaged in that very activity.

I am mindful of hon. Members' comments about the Islamic Jihad Union. The Government of Uzbekistan undoubtedly leave a great deal to be desired and may properly be described as "a tyrannical regime". The fact that opposition to that regime may manifest itself outside the law is perhaps understandable, but that it should take the form of random suicide bombings that kill innocent civilians must be unacceptable. If this House does not send out a signal that it considers such behaviour unacceptable, we are on dangerous ground.

I understand why the Minister has introduced a list of organisations, but if the Government were to seek to proscribe a controversial organisation about which opinion is divided, they should do it with a statutory instrument that refers to that organisation alone, because the House should not be placed in the position of having to reject an order, despite having a problem with only one small part of it. However, I want to emphasise to the Minister that I am satisfied with the information that she has brought to our notice in respect of the listed organisations.

We have to accept that a great deal of this must be taken on trust. Few of us, unless we are devotees of bizarre websites, are likely to know much about these organisations at all, and we must therefore accept the Government's word that the security services have told them that they pose a danger. However, if one is dealing with an organisation such as Mr. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar's Hezb-e Islami, ample evidence has been presented on numerous occasions on television of his murderous and unpleasant nature.

I do not wish to take up any more of the House's time this afternoon. We will support the Government if the order, for any reason, is put to a Division. The measures are proportionate and reasonable; in many cases, they are truly and urgently needed. Some of these organisations have been murdering fellow Muslims—for example, Ahmadi Muslims in Bangladesh. That was brought to my notice but is not mentioned in the Government's background paper. Harakat-ul-Jihad-ul-Islami is killing Hindus in that country. We should have no truck with them and make it clear that there is no ground for them to have an office, base or organisation in this country. If the order helps to achieve that end, it will be well worth while.

Photo of John Martin McDonnell John Martin McDonnell Llafur, Hayes and Harlington 1:41, 13 Hydref 2005

The emphasis of our debate, in the past and today, is on the care that is needed in the process of proscription. Many of us are worried that, in the past, the provision of information to the House, based on the intelligence services' activities, may not have been all that it should have been. Whenever it is argued that the organisations that we are proscribing seek to overthrow a legitimate Government, we should have a thorough discussion about the legitimacy of that Government. We must be sure that not all those who are engaged in armed struggle are defined as terrorists. It behoves the Government to provide us with as much information as possible.

We must have as much information as possible on the role of individual states supporting such organisations and the role that those states played in establishing them, funding them and supporting their activities. That includes the role of our Government in associating with certain organisations that are active across the world. The order is largely based on our trusting the information that comes from the intelligence services. There is deep scepticism about some of that information, certainly since the Iraq invasion and the basis on which intelligence decisions were made at that time.

I want to refer specifically to the operation of the system after proscription. I shall give the example of a constituent of my hon. Friend Mr. Khabra—Mr. Balbir Singh Bains—whose family reside in my constituency. It is an example of how the system after proscription should not work. In one list we proscribed an organisation called Babba Khalsa, which the Indian Government identify as a terrorist organisation operating in the Punjab and elsewhere. Mr. Bains visited India and was arrested and detained as a result of an alleged association with Babba Khalsa. He had no such association, as we proved subsequently, but it took us two years to do so. In fact, he was an active member of our local gurdwara and was much respected in the community in undertaking religious duties and community activities. Then it was alleged that Babba Khalsa was proscribed because of its association with Mr. Balbir Singh Bains, a known terrorist. The argument becomes circular in such cases. His family contacted me two weeks ago and told me that they understand that his name is still identified in association with the alleged terrorist group, which is still identified on the Foreign Office website. I urge the Minister to take that information on board and to try to rectify the matter. In all that we do, we must ensure that we are careful after a proscription is activated to consider its impact on the lives of individuals.

I would welcome an opportunity to debate the process by which information on individual organisations is garnered. I understand the problems about how much information can be provided, but it would be useful if we could at least have more about how much comes directly from British intelligence services and how much is provided by the CIA and others, so that we can gauge the motivation of those judgments and reach our own independent judgment.

I would welcome a longer time scale in terms of the indication of organisations that may be listed for proscription so that we can be more engaged in the debate, if only through informal discussions with the Minister, under Chatham House rules in some instances because of the sensitivity of the information.

I doubt that there will be a Division. Nevertheless, I caution that on every occasion we tread very carefully when we seek to use information from other agencies and Governments in proscribing organisations in a way that will occasionally have such a direct impact on the lives of our constituents and their families.

Photo of Alistair Carmichael Alistair Carmichael Shadow Spokesperson (Home Affairs), Liberal Democrat Spokesperson (Home Affairs) 1:46, 13 Hydref 2005

As became apparent from the interventions on the Minister, it is inevitable that in dealing with such measures an element of trust must be placed in the way in which the Government have gathered information and the use to which they wish to put it. John McDonnell made a point about the transparency of the process and the provenance of information in terms of the nationality of the agency concerned. I hope that as the process evolves—we can expect to deal with more such orders in the months and years to come—the Government will consider that approach.

Liberal Democrat Members do not take substantive issue with the substance of the order, although we have some reservations, to which I shall turn. As my hon. Friend Mr. Heath said in business questions earlier, we have strong reservations about the manner in which the Government have introduced these measures. Introducing an order listing 15 specified organisations in a circumstance where debate is limited and there is no opportunity for amendment could have put the House in a very difficult situation. As it happens, we do not have any substantive information that would contradict the information that the Minister has helpfully supplied in her letter, but that is a happy circumstance and would not necessarily apply in every case. When I first approached this matter, I shared the unease that was expressed by Adam Price about the listing of the Islamic Jihad Union. Indeed, I continue to feel uneasy about the inclusion of that group among the list of 15. If it had been the subject of a specific order, there would have been greater opportunity for the House to scrutinise its inclusion.

I hope that nobody outside the House will be in any doubt about the view that we take of the Karimov regime, which is entirely despicable and despotic. The Minister's PPS, Stephen Pound, recently did a brave and laudable thing in going there and bringing to the attention of the regime the revulsion that we all feel. I know that the hon. Gentleman and I share a concern about the practice of the Uzbek Government with regard to the operation of the death penalty. The Government's signals to the Uzbek regime have not always been helpful. I am thinking especially of their treatment of my old friend, the former ambassador to Uzbekistan, Craig Murray, who has done us all a great service in graphically highlighting the appalling human rights record of the Uzbekistan Government.

It is often said that because of the challenge posed by al-Qaeda the rules are different and are constantly rewritten. Al-Qaeda is a diffuse and ever-changing organisation. Even with the changes, to which the Minister referred, that intend to ensure that successor organisation are caught by orders such as the one that we are considering and that an organisation could not avoid them simply by changing its name, it will be difficult for the Government to establish that an organisation is a successor organisation. We must recognise that orders can take us only so far in dealing with the challenge that is posed to our country. We must also acknowledge that we require something more than proscription of organisations such as those on the list. We now need resources so that we can play the individual rather than the team.

The order is useful inasmuch as it may prevent attacks by terrorist organisations here. We should neither underestimate nor overstate its importance, whether the implications of the organisations' actions are felt in this country or elsewhere in the world. No one should be under the illusion that the order is anything other than a small weapon in the armoury in the fight against terrorism. I believe that we can expect a great deal more in the future. We are not minded to oppose the Government but I hope that, as the procedure becomes more frequently used, they will listen to what hon. Members have said today.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South 1:52, 13 Hydref 2005

I, too, doubt whether there will be a Division on the order. However, if there were, I would find it difficult to vote for it. That is not to offer endorsement of or support for any one of or all the organisations on the list. I believe that fundamentalist organisations are, by their nature, barking mad and would be thrown out of any sensible society. That is my approach to fundamentalism.

I am, however, worried about three matters: our responsibilities in the democratic process; the nature of the threat; and the consequences of simply adding names to a proscribed list without due processes of proper parliamentary scrutiny. In considering the organisations that are listed, one of my starting points was to ask what we knew about the involvement of any of them in the current risk or threat to the United Kingdom. So far, 895 people have been arrested and detained under the Terrorism Act 2000, of whom 55 per cent. were released without charge, 15 per cent.—138 people—were charged and 2.5 per cent., which makes a grand total of 23, were convicted of offences.

I have not been able to find out from the Library or the Home Office whether any of the organisations on the list have been involved or implicated in any of the charges, detentions or convictions under the Act so far. When we put names on a list of proscribed organisations, it seems reasonable to ask what evidence we have of the involvement of any of them in current actions that have threatened the security of the United Kingdom. To be unable to get an answer to that is deeply worrying in the democratic process. How can we as a Parliament draw up a list of organisations that we propose to proscribe when we cannot even tell Members of Parliament whether we have any evidence to show that those whom we have arrested under our anti-terrorism legislation have any connections with them? It would be helpful simply to know the answer to that.

Photo of Simon Hughes Simon Hughes Shadow Attorney General, Party Chair, Liberal Democrats

The hon. Gentleman will anticipate that I support his view of the process; it is entirely compatible with the position that my colleagues and I have always taken. Does he agree that we could do better if, before the House was asked to debate and vote on such an order, we asked the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Home Affairs Committee to do some work for us to prepare the ground? It would be better, even if we had only one debate, because we could vote on each organisation separately on the basis of some consideration by colleagues with the time to do it before the Government brought their proposal to the House.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South

That was precisely the point that I was about to make. When we debated the initial proscribed list, many of us made the same points. We said that Parliament had been presented with a complete list and that we were unable to consider individual organisations on the list and vote on them separately. We were told that there was provision for appeals, but that is not the same as a parliamentary right to exercise a parliamentary judgment on the legitimacy of a case for inclusion.

It is dangerous for the democratic process if we start on a path of assuming that Parliament has a right to make lumped-together decisions on composite lists without adequate scrutiny. I would be happy if the list had gone through a separate Committee scrutiny system in the House. I would be happy if there had been a fuller debate in which we were allowed to exercise our judgment organisation by organisation. I might not have liked the decisions that were reached, but at least I could have been confident that our responsibilities for the democratic process had been properly exercised. However, the House is not going about matters in that way and that takes us into dangerous waters, as illustrated by the case that my hon. Friend John McDonnell mentioned.

I am worried by the point that Simon Hughes made about organisations on other people's lists. The House has a right to be told what representations other Governments have made to the UK Government about including organisations on a proscribed list. I suspect that if we looked at the United Nations list, it would contain some organisations whose proscription would be unwelcome to the United States of America. I suspect that we do not include any of those organisations on our list. We have a proscription list that is friendly for the current US Administration. There is a dreadful lop-sidedness to that sort of approach.

If we go through the list, we see that many of the organisations go back to the 1980s. We were not presented with them in the first or the second proscribed list and we must ask what has changed to require their addition to our list of known risks or threats to the UK. The list is littered with expressions such as "have the potential to", "have the capacity to", "they have anti-western views" or "they have anti-American views". Many of us have similar inclinations, but that does not make us terrorist organisations. I was relieved to note that the Socialist Campaign Group was not on the list. [Hon. Members: "Not yet."] Indeed. I would not rule it out for all time.

Photo of John Martin McDonnell John Martin McDonnell Llafur, Hayes and Harlington

As the chair of the Socialist Campaign Group, I should like to say that, so far, there has been no indication of that happening, thank God. Is there not a sweet sense of irony, however, that the first group on the list is the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, which has been seeking the replacement of the current Libyan regime? The CIA has been trying to achieve that for nearly 25 years.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South

I am well aware of that. We might also look at Harakat-ul-Jihad-ul-Islami, an organisation originally formed to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. I suspect that, at that time, no one would have described it as a terrorist organisation. It was almost certainly founded with the covert backing of the CIA, and would have received direct funding from the CIA for its heroic acts of resistance to the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. However, now that circumstances have changed and that group's hostilities are directed towards those whom it regards as the current occupiers of that country, it has become a terrorist organisation. Parliament must exercise greater judgment and scrutiny of the legitimacy of current threats and the impartiality of the lobbying that we receive from other Governments to add organisations to our list.

Two of the criteria for inclusion on the list apply to organisations whose principal aim is to overthrow legitimate Governments and to those that advocate armed struggle or the killing of the leaders of such Governments or of the Administrations that run their country. Bearing in mind those criteria, I would urge people to look at the website of the Christian Coalition of America, which is run by Rev. Pat Buchanan, who actively and openly advocates the assassination of President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela. If we are to be consistent, we should consider imposing a proscribing order on the Christian Coalition, too. Those who actively advocate the assassination of democratically elected leaders of Governments, and whose organisations platform such ideas openly on their websites, ought to be included in the banning order. The thing is, they are not Muslims. We take a very different view of Christian fundamentalists, including those who advocate armed insurgency and the killing of nationally elected leaders, because they are somehow part of civilisation. I worry when, at each stage of a banning process, we are faced with a list of organisations whose crime has been to shift allegiance from pro-western terrorism to anti-western terrorism, and which excludes organisations that advocate precisely the same acts of terrorism against regimes that the west does not like.

Photo of Mike Gapes Mike Gapes Chair, Foreign Affairs Committee, Chair, Foreign Affairs Committee

My hon. Friend is in danger of undermining the validity of his case. I should like to cite an example from the list: Harakat-ul-Jihad-ul-Islami (Bangladesh). According to the list, that organisation

"targets progressive intellectuals and secular politicians who ideologically challenge the path of the radical Islamists. It also criticises NGO activity as un-Islamic because these organisations are involved in spreading Western ideas of women's empowerment and social transformation."

My hon. Friend is trying to create a caricature. I would argue, however, that since 9/11 and the attacks in July this year, we face a new situation. There are international links between many of these organisations, and by trivialising the issue he is not taking it seriously.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South

I reject that. I return to the basis of my argument, which is that the House is trivialising the process because we are not being allowed to vote on each of these organisations one by one. I have no hesitation in saying that there are organisations on the list that I would vote to ban. However, there are others about which I would want to defer my decision and to ask questions. The refusal to give Parliament the right to make selective judgments, organisation by organisation, case by case, allows us to do nothing other than make a blanket judgment on a list that cannot be amended.

Photo of Dominic Grieve Dominic Grieve Shadow Attorney General

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is trivialising the matter at all. Indeed, the points that he makes are perfectly legitimate. Perhaps we are being too selective in the organisations that we are banning. The need for extra parliamentary scrutiny—a difficult matter, given that so much of this information comes from the intelligence services—is desirable. Otherwise, we shall not be able to persuade people of the need to take these steps. That is a very serious democratic deficit.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South

That is pretty much the point on which I want to end. I do not want to focus on the case for or against proscribing specific organisations on this list. I want us to look at our responsibilities as a Parliament. How can we exercise our duty of scrutiny? Our duty is to exercise specific judgments case by case, to see whether we ought, quite properly, to include organisations on a list such as this.

Photo of Simon Hughes Simon Hughes Shadow Attorney General, Party Chair, Liberal Democrats

I share the hon. Gentleman's views on this issue, and I also happen to be a member of the Christian Church. I believe that we do inter-faith and inter-community relations a disservice if we take a differential view. That is why, when we debate the Equality Bill, which will come before us soon, we must remember that protecting one faith in this country while not giving protection to the others represents a fundamental flaw in the equality with which we should treat all these issues in Parliament.

Photo of Alan Simpson Alan Simpson Llafur, Nottingham South

I want to finish on this point. We have a duty to ourselves to insist that the way in which we approach the scrutiny of organisations to be included on proscribed lists has to be more selective. I appreciate the difficulties involved in subjecting some of the claims to proper scrutiny, but it cannot be beyond the wit and wisdom of Parliament to set up mechanisms for due diligence questioning. We do not have any such mechanisms as we try to deal with this list today. Doubts will remain as long as we continue to produce these lumped-together lists that we cannot revisit. They cast a shadow of doubt over the fairness, the even-handedness and the wisdom with which Parliament deals with this process.

Photo of Patrick Mercer Patrick Mercer Shadow Minister (Homeland Security), (Assisted By Shadow Law Officers) 2:07, 13 Hydref 2005

I am grateful for being able to make a small contribution on the most important and dangerous subject facing Parliament at the moment. I am also grateful to be able to endorse the views of my Nottinghamshire colleague, Alan Simpson. He has just made an extremely important contribution, which was not trivial in any way, shape or form. I welcome this opportunity because, like the hon. Gentleman, I believe that these organisations need to be considered in detail. We need to have time to debate what they stand for. We should not simply take a block of names, philosophies and confused ideologies, give them a convenient tag, and write them off. We need to look at the matter in detail.

I shall not oppose the Government today, and I praise the dispatch with which they have now chosen to move, but I wonder why they have taken so long to ban one, two or possibly three organisations that, so far as I can see, probably represent the same thing. I am concentrating particularly on the organisations that call themselves Ansar Al-Islam and Ansar Al Sunna. The Minister might equally have put on the list al-Qaeda in the Country of Two Rivers, and a series of other names by which these organisations go whenever it suits them.

It is an aphorism I know, but we are not considering concrete organisations. We are considering ideologies and organisations that have more in common with a piece of mercury, which, when hit with a hammer, will split into various different parts and spring up enormously dangerously. As we are concentrating on those organisations—which, it is fair to say, owe their allegiance to Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, the gentleman who brings us on the television screen the charming views of Britons' heads being sliced off with bread knives, who is such an expert in handling the media that when we lose one of our aircraft, whether to friendly fire or enemy fire I do not know, he has his cameras on the spot within minutes and those images projected across the world within hours, and who runs a propaganda machine far in advance of anything that we seem to be able to handle in countering his particular threat—I wonder why this individual has not had more interest shown in him and his organisation before now.

Without making any judgment on the rights or wrongs of the Iraq war, I am interested to hear those criticisms that spring up, saying that the war has made us more vulnerable to terrorist attacks since we engaged in it. Let me point out that those organisations, Al-Islam and Al-Sunna, brought us the January 2003 ricin attack—please note, before we went to war in Iraq. That organisation, I suggest, leaves al-Qaeda as we believe it to exist in the shadows. It is a long way in advance of some of the amateurish operations that we have seen from that group. That organisation tried to use weapons of mass destruction, and I use the phrase advisedly, on the mainland of this country as long as three years ago. If the newspapers are to be believed, it was active as recently as last weekend and its suspects are in custody. Whether they will be charged, released or released on control orders I have no idea. While I am delighted that the Government are getting a move on from this particular point, why has it taken so long to address those two, three or four groups, whatever they might call themselves?

I challenge the Government to go a step further. Many of us have ignored the problem of terrorism—writing it off, thinking it would never happen in this country and that the study of it was too difficult. Well, it has happened. We have had the events of 7 July and 21 July. Possibly, something was planned for last weekend. Certainly, the arrests that followed suggest that we are still very much in jeopardy. Given that a debate on emergency planning is coming up later next week, I ask the Minister why all we see from the Government is lists of names and suggested legislation. Why do we not see concrete methods for the prevention and suppression of terrorism?

The Minister talked eloquently about those organisations on this list of names adding to the hostile environment. There are a million things that we could do to make terrorism that much more difficult to demonstrate inside this country, but I come back to the point made by the hon. Member for Nottingham, South: we need to raise our awareness of it in the House and to ensure that our public understand what the threat is. With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend Mr. Grieve, we must not think that these are a series of bizarre websites with bizarre names that we do not understand. We need to understand them.

We the public—not just here in Parliament, but on the street—need to understand what the threat is. We must not just proscribe those organisations, but have a campaign for public information and public training that makes people understand what the threat is and know what to do about it. We have done this a million times before. For instance, I could ask the Government what their approach is on flooding. They are taking it extremely seriously, telling us what the danger is and how to cope with it.

I shall finish on this point, if I may. This is not just a question of proscribing organisations, although that will help, and laying down laws, which might help, although I have yet to see a suicide bomber who would have been deterred by a law. We must have concrete measures, we must ensure that our people understand the dangers and know how to deal with them. We will be attacked again. We must ensure next time that we first make things more difficult for our enemies and that casualties are minimised.

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee 2:15, 13 Hydref 2005

I am grateful to hon. Members for the tone and way in which they have responded to the presentation of the order. Some serious and significant issues have been raised, and I shall endeavour to deal with them as far as I can. If any further detailed information is required, particularly by Simon Hughes, I shall try to ensure that we provide it.

Several Members asked whether we could have had a debate on a single organisation, or perhaps separate votes on single organisations. As I understand it, the procedure we have adopted today is that set out in the Terrorism Act 2000. This procedure is the normal way in which such things are brought forward, but I am conscious of the fact that Mr. Grieve in particular raised the issue of an organisation over which there is controversy rather than a degree of consensus around the House in relation to the order. I undertake to look further into it. I cannot say that we will necessarily do as we have been asked, but I am conscious of the strength of the argument. No Member would welcome the prospect of 15 separate votes on such an order—that clearly would not be sensible—but I am conscious of Members' feelings.

John McDonnell and my hon. Friend Alan Simpson—not that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington is not my hon. Friend; I have two hon. Friends sat behind me—asked whether these organisations are simply fundamentalist, what the depth is of the activity they are engaged in, how we can get more information and what the role of Parliament is in scrutinising such orders. Again, I understand the point, because all Members of Parliament feel a strong duty in wanting to be able to take a view on behalf of their constituents and in terms of their role generally.

Inevitably, I am constrained by the fact that these are matters of huge sensitivity involving desperately sensitive intelligence information, which, if in the public domain, could reduce our ability to withstand the threat of terrorism that faces us. I say to both my hon. Friends that for the Home Secretary to come forward with an order of this nature, he has to be satisfied that these people are not just expressing fundamentalist views, but are concerned in terrorism. We have a definition of terrorism, which is about violence, and he is satisfied that all these organisations—in one way or another in terms of their links to organisations and the activities they are engaged in—are concerned in terrorism.

So, this is not simply a matter of free speech or people expressing views. There is a hard definition in the 2000 Act that these groups have to be concerned in terrorism for them to meet the proscription criteria. I ask my hon. Friends to think about that. This is not an academic debate about what people are saying on which we can all take a view; it is a real situation, as Patrick Mercer said. We face a serious threat and these people are concerned in terrorism. The hon. Member for Beaconsfield talked about the fact that people have been murdering other people. That is one of the reasons they are included.

Photo of John Martin McDonnell John Martin McDonnell Llafur, Hayes and Harlington

When we come to the debate on the Terrorism Bill, proscription will be on the grounds of statements that glorify or exalt, so it will be on the basis of statements made in the future.

Photo of Dominic Grieve Dominic Grieve Shadow Attorney General

I perhaps did not touch on one matter in my speech, but I would be grateful for the Minister's response. We have been talking about websites, and I pointed out that many people, unless they try to access the websites of these organisations, will be ignorant of them. What becomes the status of such websites in British law once proscription has taken place, and what powers do the Government have to try to remove those websites as a result of proscription?

Photo of Hazel Blears Hazel Blears Minister of State (Home Office) (Policing, Security and Community Safety), Member, Labour Party National Executive Committee

Any organisation that provided or displayed support, or any individual who displayed support, for an organisation that was proscribed would be committing a criminal offence. Therefore, wherever the publication was—in a book or on a website—it ought to fall within those criteria. But the hon. Gentleman knows that there is often difficulty in dealing with matters involving the internet, because although prosecutions can be brought against domestic website hosts, it is sometimes more difficult to instigate prosecutions around foreign servers. That is a problem we face not just in this field, but when we deal with issues such as paedophilia and selling illegal products.

Yesterday, I discussed the problems relating to selling guns on the internet, which is an easier issue for companies to deal with domestically than abroad. The Terrorism Bill will include provisions to deal with dissemination of material and websites. This illustrates the need for absolutely first-class co-operation between different countries in the international community, so that we can act together rather than individually.

Mr. Carmichael raised again the issue of transparency of process. I take his point, and it is important that we are as transparent as possible. I do not know what other jurisdictions do when they have their proscription debates, but the explanatory memorandum provides a fair degree of information and transparency for Members. He said that proscription will not solve the problem, which I entirely accept: proscription is simply another tool that we can use to try to create a hostile environment for terrorists in this country. I well remember our controversial debates about control orders and whether those would provide a hostile environment for terrorists in this country, on which people took different views. A range of powers are available, and we must look to use as many powers as we can to protect this country. Therefore, proscription is a useful power, but it will certainly not resolve the situation overnight. We should not hesitate to use it, however, when applicable. I hope that Liberal Democrat Members will support our Terrorism Bill provisions that seek to strengthen our powers against terrorism and to provide such a hostile environment.

My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South raised the question of whether all the organisations concerned were on the American list. My information is that Al Ittihad Al Islamia is proscribed by Canada but not America; Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin is also proscribed by Canada; Lashkar-e Jhangvi is proscribed by Pakistan, America, Canada, Australia and the UN; Sipah-e Sahaba Pakistan is proscribed by Pakistan; and the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group is proscribed by the US but also by Canada and the UN. Therefore, we are not simply receiving representations from America about the need for proscription. It is important to put that on the record.

Although we are considering Islamic extremist groups today, groups from a range of different faiths and backgrounds have been proscribed in the past: ETA; the International Sikh Youth Federation; Babbar Khalsa, a group campaigning for the Sikh homeland; and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil. Therefore, it is right to emphasise that this is not simply about proscribing Muslim groups. It is about trying to see where the threat is, and taking appropriate action to meet the level of threat that faces us. I would not want to give the impression that we are acting in any other way. Fourteen different Irish groups are also proscribed, so proscribed organisations are from many different religious backgrounds and none.

The hon. Member for Newark stressed the importance of the public being aware of the nature of the threat, which he is right to do. I have had many debates with him, and it is also right that the public should be alert but not alarmed. A balance must be struck, and we are seeking to use all the tools at our disposal to make this the most hostile environment possible for terrorists, and to have sensible powers that strengthen our ability to disrupt, prosecute and bring terrorists to justice in our country.

I am very pleased by the tenor of today's debate, and as we move into debates on the Terrorism Bill in the next few weeks, I hope that we can continue that constructive engagement and that we will have some extremely good law at the end of the debate.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2005, which was laid before the House on 10th October, be approved.