Prevention of Terrorism Debate (MR. Speaker's Ruling)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 21 Mawrth 1979.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Martin Flannery Mr Martin Flannery , Sheffield, Hillsborough 12:00, 21 Mawrth 1979

Nevertheless, beatings took place in a prison. They were beatings of people who had not been found guilty. Wherever such things occur, they diminish and demean us all. Do not let us pretend that that sort of thing does not go on to some extent over here.

The Guardian editorial today says that we should constantly question such temporary provisions or they will, by default. become a permanency. My fear is that they are a permanency. I fear that all our liberties are being encroached upon by the seemingly semi-permanency of this. We fear the deprivation of human rights and liberties because the results are draconian and fraught with injustice. That is frightening to all libertarians.

The Guardian said that 3,782 people had been detained up to the beginning of February, of whom 206 had been charged. Another 34 were returned to Northern Ireland. Of those charged, 36 were accused of criminal actions and 20 were acquitted. In my opinion, the Act has become simply an administrative measure of convenience, and as such it is a great danger to our liberties. I believe that the law as it existed before the Prevention of Terrorism Act was sufficient to handle the situation.

The Prevention of Terrorism Act was introduced in order to allay the fears of our people. I deeply respect that intention, although I have always thought that it was unnecessary and have always argued that years hence we would still be renewing these measures.

It is impossible to discuss this subject without discussing the events in Castlereagh. What happened there has underlined all our fears. It has also strengthened the hand of the IRA. Undoubtedly, by diminishing us and diminishing justice, Castlereagh has strengthened the hand of the IRA. Many young men will say that there is no justice if things are left to us over here. They will believe that they must handle the situation themselves in Northern Ireland—and they do not mean by devolution. They mean that they have fallen for the IRA line, because they do not seem to get anywhere by other means. That is the grave danger.

Let us assume that Dr. Irwin had not told us the facts. There are powerful names and forces at work, trying to prove him wrong, to slander and demean him. Let us assume that they succeed. What will happen? In Castlereagh and places like that, the malpractices will continue. Therefore, the men who are ill treating people will continue to do so, and will do it all the more. Therefore, Dr. Irwin should be praised by us all for his courage and for letting us know what was going on in our name in Castlereagh. It is vital that, in the prevention of terrorism, we are seen to be like Caesar's wife—correct in every detail. We must be seen to be just people who would not condone this kind of treatment. I want all our voices to be raised in defence of people who are courageous enough to stand out.

I am very lucky in that I do not live in Belfast. I always pay tribute to hon. Members who live there. They have to live in a terrible atmosphere, constantly in fear of their lives. I know what that must be like. When I first came to this House, I received so many threats that at the request of the special branch I had to take my telephone number out of the book. In Northern Ireland it is far worse than that.

I believe that the Bennett report is incomplete. It is absolutely vital that we take evidence from the people who have suffered so that we can engage in research to find out exactly what has happened. I hope that the Government will say that they are prepared to engage in such an inquiry.

When one reads about exclusion orders, one finds it almost unbelievable. Paragraph 51 of Lord Shackleton's review says: This is exemplified particularly in the criticism that the excluded person is not told the nature of the case against him, nor is he afforded the means of subjecting it to cross-examination or otherwise testing it. In all conscience, how can we defend that?

I was gratified to hear the hon. Member for Antrim, North say that he wants the jury system reintroduced in Northern Ireland. That is what we all want. As long as the jury system does not exist, British justice will be brought severely into question. Why not have a trial? Why not have a proper accusation? What chance has the excluded person? My hon. Friend the Member for Barking (Miss Richardson) gave details of three cases of appalling injustice, and my hon. Friends the Members for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) and Bristol, North-West (Mr. Thomas) also quoted cases which were quite horrifying. I believe that to the extent that we insist upon these measures we stifle justice. I also believe that this legislation will be permanent because the frame of mind that can tolerate it is the same frame of mind as produced it.

Injustices flow from the essential nature of the Prevention of Terrorism Act as sure as rain comes from a rain cloud. It exacerbates and inflames the already difficult situation with which we are trying to grapple. It is applied basically to one section of the community—the minority in Northern Ireland. We dodge the reality that the Catholics, by and large, are excluded from the forces of law and order in Northern Ireland. They see the police as an alien force. I know that the majority of members of the RUC are doing an honourable job, but I should like to see more people from the minority community in such organisations. It is not enough for hon. Members to say that Catholics will not come into such organisations. We have had 50 years in which they were not wanted. These are the realities.