Prevention of Terrorism Debate (MR. Speaker's Ruling)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 21 Mawrth 1979.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Eldon Griffiths Mr Eldon Griffiths , Bury St Edmunds 12:00, 21 Mawrth 1979

No one likes exclusion orders. No one, including the police, likes powers to be given to anybody in this country to detain other citizens without trial. But equally—I hope that I am right—no one can possibly support terrorism.

This debate, as so many before, is the classic debate between those who put first the issues of liberty and those who put first the issues of order. The truth is that there can be neither without the other—no liberty without order and no freedom without law. It is the task of the House—and indeed of Ministers—to balance the liberties of our people with the need for law and order so that those liberties may be enjoyed.

The first civil liberty is the right to life and the pursuit of happiness. But the main threat to life and the pursuit of happiness in this country does not come from the police. Nor does it come from Ministers—although there are occasions when, among others, I contend that it does. The main threat to civil liberty comes from the criminal, the wrongdoer and the terrorist. Anyone who cares for liberty must therefore seek to defeat the criminal, the law-breaker and the terrorist.

There is, of course, the other side of the coin. If we give to the police, or, for that matter, to the bureaucracy, powers that are so onerous or usurpatious or tyrannical that they destroy the very civil liberties that they are designed to protect, the remedy may be worse than the disease. If the police abuse the powers that they are given, temporarily, by the House, they must be called to account. At all times the House has the task of monitoring what happens when we provide powers of this kind to any agency of Government, whether it be Ministers, police or bureaucrats. This debate is a part of the monitoring process. The Home Secretary, in the way that he put the arguments before the House today, was serving the House and the law by balancing the two poles of liberty and order.

I judge this Act in terms of its title. It is the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act. I want to say a word about those three main points. First, terrorism. There can be no doubt that we are in the presence of terrorism on a large scale in the present-day world though fortunately, in recent years, there has been some reduction in the carnage, at least in this country. But within the Province for which the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland bears responsibility, terrorism continues, as the right hon. Gentleman will testify. And none of us can say with any certainty that it will not continue, and perhaps get very much worse.

Let me refer—as Lord Shackleton said—to the situation when the Bill was originally brought before the House. In 1970 there were acts of terrorism in Northern Ireland leading to the deaths of 25 people. In 1971 the number of deaths resulting from terrorist attacks was 174. In 1972 it was 468. Throughout 1973 those terrorist attacks increased and crossed the water to this country, with 86 bombing and shooting incidents. In the first 10 months of 1974 there were 99 bombing and shooting incidents resulting in 19 deaths and injuries to 145 people in this country. In the first 20 days of November 1974 there were 11 attacks, four deaths, and injuries to 35 people. Ultimately there was the horror of the Birmingham incident.

No Government could possibly have accepted that situation without taking action and bringing in legislation of this kind. So the Act was inevitable, just as much as it was, in the circumstances, desirable.

I believe—with the police—that the Act has had some value in reducing the toll. It would be wrong to ascribe to the Act the whole of the reduction in the killings and murders. There are many other factors. Probably more important is the improved intelligence service, the improved political climate and improved efficiency both in the methods and equipment of the police forces in this country and in Northern Ireland.

But he would be a bold Member of this House, not having the information that is available to the Home Secretary, who would say that this Act has played no part in the reduction of terror in this country. I believe that it has had some benefit and that it would be a mistake to remove it when the police are convinced of its value.

I should like to report to the House the views of the Northern Ireland Police Federation, representing all the ranks, up to chief inspector, of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. I need declare no special interest in this matter. For one thing, the House knows my police interest perfectly well, and, for another, I have in any case no direct relationship whatever with the RUC. But I was telephoned this morning, and this is the view of the Northern Ireland police.

The police say that they wish to retain the Prevention of Terrorism Act because it is necessary, in their judgment, to have these powers to help combat terrorism. They refer to the Shackleton report and to its recommendation to abolish section 11 on the withholding of information. They disagree with Lord Shackleton on that point. They wish this section to be retained because in practice there have been a number of successful prosecutions under section 11, and without it they would have been handicapped. Their conclusion speaks for itself. They say that any diminution of the powers provided to the police service under this Act would in their judgment be a victory for the IRA. Those words are not mine. They are the words of the men who are at the sharp end.

There has been an undercurrent of concern and in some cases condemnation of the police service in general and the Royal Ulster Constabulary in particular during today's debate. But we make two things clear. First if any police officer has broken the law, has ignored his oath of office, has behaved brutally or insensitively, he can expect no mercy from the police service. The police are harder on their own than any group of people in this country. There are cover-ups from time to time. There are bad apples in the police service, as in all walks of life. But the police have no wish to retain in their midst, or as their colleagues, those who break the law and behave as sadists or brutes.

I await with confidence the results of the investigation launched by the Secretary of State. If it should show that a minority of police officers has misbehaved, I am sure that the police service. as well as the investigatory body, will wish them to be called to account.

My second point is this. The police service has earned and deserves not insults but the respect of this House for the work it does in Northern Ireland and in this country. The reality, which perhaps not every hon. Member will recognise, is that day by day young police officers take their lives into their hands. It is they who suffer the casualties. It is their wives who worry, when they go out on duty, whether they will return. It is a difficult, demanding job involving courage, sacrifice and dedication.

Against the background of today's debate it is right to put these matters into perspective. While there may be—I do not doubt it—a few police officers who from time to time have abused their powers, the overwhelming majority of them do a task that few of us would be willing or able to do. They deserve our praise and not our insults.

I turn very briefly to three specific points. The first is a matter of perspective. I refer in particular to paragraph 98 of the Shackleton report, which says that controls at the port are thought to be an unreasonable interference with the travelling public', and that it is thought by many that the police have been exercising them harshly ". It may be so; I do not know. But I note the figures. Lord Shackleton says: It may come as a surprise to those who believe that an unduly large number of people are detained at ports to know that in 1977 "— the last year for which he had full statistics— out of a total of 3,967,583 people who passed through these ports, only 308 were detained—fewer than one in 10,000. I accept that there was inconvenience for those 308 people. But can it really be said, in a world where civil liberties suffer so much in so many other countries, that all our civil liberties are put at risk when 308 people are detained out of 3,967,583 people passing through the ports?

Lord Shackleton goes on to say: Out of a total of 2,299 people who were detained under the port powers "— that is to say, not necessarily in the ports themselves but under those powers— from 29th November 1974 to 1st June 1978, only 300 were held for more than 48 hours. It may well be cause for concern that 300 people were held for more than 48 hours. But against the background of the killings and the murders I do not see that as destroying the civil liberties of this country. I see it as a prudent attempt to resist the destruction of large numbers of innocent people. Lord Shackleton goes on to show that of that number a substantial proportion were charged, and that in many cases they were convicted

I want to make a final point of perspective in relation to the powers in section 12 of the Act. Of the 394 people detained under section 12 in Northern Ireland for more than 48 hours, 232 were charged during the extended detention period. Of these, 67 were charged with murder, 17 with attempted murder, five with conspiracy to murder, 43 with explosives offences and 48 with firearms offences.

Is it not right and sensible that there should be this kind of police surveillance of crime on that scale? Some hon. Members might suggest that those were merely charges. In fact, by 1 June 1978, 232 of the 394 had been charged, and of those 117 had been convicted. So the working of the Act can be seen. The point is that 394 people were detained 272 charged and 117 convicted.

Here is evidence to demonstrate that the Act assists the police in their principal duty, which is to deter, to prevent and to avoid crime taking place.