Suspicion may arise in many ways. The IRA is cunning. If it wants to get at certain people who are its enemies—for example, Irishmen living in Britain—surely it can find ways of introducing suspicion. It will then be said"I am sorry, I cannot tell what the evidence is, but we have evidence and therefore there will be an exclusion order made against you."

It is interesting to speculate how many people saw the evidence that led to two Bristolians being dumped in Northern Ireland. How many members of the Bristol police force saw it? Did a young secretary type the evidence? Did other individuals see it? Presumably many people saw the evidence if it was on paper. Of course, we do not know whether it was or is on paper. It may have been somebody's word. We do not know whether files were produced.

On that basis I, too, have grave doubts about the Shackleton report. Paragraph 124 refers to the adviser being independent and seeing all the papers. The paragraph states: The interview with the Adviser affords the subject a chance to elaborate on his representations ". How can he elaborate on his representations when he does not know the accusations that have been made against him? That is nonsense.

The implementation of exclusion orders is traumatic. The two Bristolians were taken from their families and sent to Northern Ireland where they were released. I am not a lawyer, but surely, in all reasonableness, if the police in a city such as London, Liverpool or Bristol are suspicious of somebody and think that he may be connected with terrorist activity, the proper thing to do is to watch his activities in the place where he lives and not to pick him up and dump him in Northern Ireland. That latter reaction seems illogical.

It seems that when those who are excluded reach Northern Ireland they are set free. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been questioned about the number of people dumped in Northern Ireland in that way. He has been asked whether they have ever been charged. As I understand it, none of them has been charged.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport, North (Mr. Bennett) said, there was the unusual case of a Southampton seaman that highlighted the facile and cosmetic nature of the legislation. He was picked up, presumably on suspicion that he had committed or would commit acts of terrorism. There was a long argument because he was a seaman and had an address in Southampton. The argument was about whether he had lived in Britain for 20 years. As a seaman he had lived only a part of the time in Southampton. Eventually it was decided that he was covered by the 20-year rule. That being so, he was immediately released. That is an example of the cosmetic and nonsensical character of the legislation.

In the Shackleton report the question is posed whether instead of having one adviser there should be a panel of advisers. The report states: I do not think it would significantly help the position of the subject of the order, and it would be a deceit to lead him to think otherwise. It is, I submit, deceitful to lead him to think that the adviser can do anything for him in any case. He is not in a position to know what the evidence is against him.

Referring to the exclusion orders, paragraph 130 says: Exclusion can be justified only so long as it contributes significantly to the prevention of terrorism. I do not believe that the case has been made out that excluding people from their families by means of exclusion orders has any effect on terrorism or its prevention. Paragraph 130 continues: On the one hand, it is held that exclusion is unacceptable in principle and makes no contribution in practice to the prevention of terrorism. That is where I stand. The paragraph goes on: On the other hand, the police have no doubt that exclusion has made a significant contribution in this respect. On the basis of the cases I have seen I have no reason to doubt their judgement. What does Lord Shackleton suggest? Does he suggest that those subject to exclusion orders would have committed acts of terrorism? He goes on:"I have no reason to doubt the judgment of the police." But how many cases did Lord Shackleton see? Did he interview any of the people subjected to exclusion orders?

There is a possibility that if a person is taken away from his family and dumped in Northern Ireland—as happened with the two Bristolians—that would create bitterness that might possibly lead to acts of terrorism. It could make such a person bitter about the system and might well propel him in that direction. There is no evidence in the Shackleton report that such orders have made any significant contribution. And the exclusion order procedure is completely contrary to natural justice. It has been said that we should stand by the rule of law. What do we mean by"the rule of law "? Do we mean the rule of law by Stalin in the Soviet Union, or Hitler in Nazi Germany? I do not think so. I thought that we meant the rule of law based on natural justice. That is why we stand up for the rule of law in this country. The rule of law is based on natural justice. If I am wrong, I hope I shall be told.

An essential ingredient of natural justice is that an accused person should know of what crime he is accused. People with exclusion orders against them are not told. In the case of one of the Bristolians the family was broken up. The man left his wife and children. There has since been a divorce. Yet Shackleton has the cheek to say that that is not a punishment. He talks like a lawyer. For my constituent, this was a punishment. His family was broken up and there was a divorce. There were other traumatic experiences associated with that. We stand for the rule of law—but the rule of law based on natural justice, and natural justice demands the right of someone to know of what he is accused. This House should be the watchdog of civil liberties and not the Home Secretary's poodle.