In the Shackleton report, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is mention of the fact that allegations were made concerning certain members of the RUC—not uniformed members but detective members. It is also mentioned that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland had instituted a committee, which was the Judge Bennett committee, to look into this matter. That is part of the Shackleton report. In discussing that report, I am seeking to discuss that reference and the result of it.

As the hon. Member for Belfast, West has rightly reminded the House, under the very Act that we are discussing people find themselves in police custody, and, as a result, these other matters flow from the fact that they have been arrested and are in police custody.

I return to the point that the Bennett report does not indict the RUC as a body. It is vital that that is said in the House in plain, clear language. Second, the report commends the RUC for seeking to deal with terrorism in a very difficult situation.

There is a reference in the report to the fact that allegations have been made concerning ill treatment. A previous speaker has referred to paragraph 163. At the conclusion of that paragraph, Judge Bennett suggested that there were people who had received bruises and wounds which they did not inflict upon themselves. But Judge Bennett made it clear that, as he had not interrogated the police, he could not condemn them without hearing them. We in this House need to get the whole matter into its right perspective.

There is a mention in the Shackleton report of these various allegations and suggestions. It seems that only a very small number of police are under suspicion. Like the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham), I regret the fact that no member of the Northern Ireland Office is on the Front Bench to hear this debate. I suggest to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, in his absence, that it is the duty of the Northern Ireland Office, of the police authority and of the Chief Constable, for the good name and credibility of the whole force—which has not been indicted but which has been the subject of certain misrepresentations as a result of this report—to ensure that the truth of the matter is brought forth.

There is no suggestion that there is a conspiracy among police officers to carry out acts against these prisoners, but there is a suggestion that certain police officers, on their own, are acting outside the law. As the Secretary of State said, one is too many. I think that we all agreed on that.

However, I must re-echo what was said by the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury—that warnings have been put up in regard to this matter and, unfortunately, those warnings have not been heeded. It is a great disservice to the RUC and to the security forces that these matters are not fully laid, once and for all, so that the security forces in Northern Ireland can go forward with the support that I believe they have right across the divide in Northern Ireland.

I want to leave that point and to come to some matters that are relevant—perhaps this will make you happier, Mr. Deputy Speaker—to the Shackleton report and the Act.

I feel very strongly that we need to see that deportation on suspicion is not regarded as being the result of a judicial trial of any kind. These people are not guilty of anything. We had better get it into our minds that this is an executive act of Government, that the Executive make a decision, and that the Home Secretary is responsible for that decision. But the person has not been tried. He does not even know of what he is accused. No witnesses are called. The idea of the adviser and the term"appeal"are completely misleading, because this is in no way a judicial hearing or a judicial appeal. The Executive make a decision.

I totally disagree with the right hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Craig), who suggested that we should bring back executive detention in Northern Ireland. That would be the height of folly, because we know what has happend previously. I was the only person on the Protestant side in Northern Ireland at the time who took a strong stand on this matter. I am glad that my stand has been fully vindicated. I do not want executive detention brought back in Northern Ireland. However, I realise that this is an executive act, and the sooner we get this fact over to people, the better.

If fingerprints have been taken from people who are deported, or if there is a record on a police file, such records should be completely destroyed immediately, or the fingerprints should be given to them together with the whole of the police report on them, because such people have never been tried. This is an executive act. It should be an executive act, because if it were a judicial act we could not even discuss it in the House. How ever, we can come to the House and make the Home Secretary, or his representative, answerable in the House for what he does. But that we could not do if it were not an executive act. I believe that it must remain an executive act.

Northern Ireland is at present in the grip of terrorism. In the coming months we shall have more horrible murders and a holocaust of explosions. We have seen what has happened in Kinauley. Anyone who saw on television the state of the police station there after mortar bombs had been rained down upon it will realise that it was a miracle that only one soldier was hurt at the time. It was in the Newtonhamilton area that the killing of a soldier took place. This is a sad fact.

In regard to the Act and its renewal, are the Government really taking on board what was said by the hon. Member for Islington, South and Finsbury—that there is a political problem in Northern Ireland and that there is also a military and a police problem? No matter what we do politically, we shall never settle the Provisional IRA because its members will not stand for election.

We shall never settle that section of the Republican community which believes not in the ballot but in the bomb and the bullet. It never stands for election. The hon. Member for Belfast, West has spoken about these people in his area. I do not know what they do in my area because they never put up candidates. But they resist other candidates. These people make it very difficult for a candidate to stand for election. They make it difficult for people to go out to vote for him and they make it very difficult for him to conduct his election campaign.

The House needs to realise that there is a political problem. I disagree with the right hon. Member for Belfast, East. I do not believe that the answer is rule from Westminster. The answer to this question is a devolved Parliament and Government in Northern Ireland. I do not believe that this House can properly govern Northern Ireland, even with what is called total integration. We need to work towards a devolved Government and a devolved Parliament. I hope that some day this House, in its wisdom, will give us what it gave to the people of Wales and Scotland—the opportunity to have a 40 per cent. vote. We would then, perhaps, have the opportunity to say what type of Government we desire.

We face a terrorist campaign in Northern Ireland. This House should be aware that, sooner or later, that campaign will spill into Great Britain. It is only because of the measures adopted by the Government that it has not spilled more extensively into Great Britain. In a war situation, we have to forgo certain privileges. Everyone during the last war had to carry an identity card. That was obnoxious to many people but it was essential to the security of the country.

Many matters are essential to the security of this country. Hon. Members would be foolish to think that this Act stems the flood tide of terrorism. In some ways, however, it acts as a deterrent. What worries me about the Act is the way the courts are handling convicted people in Northern Ireland.

I recommend the House and hon. Members present to study carefully a list which appeared in Hansard on 21 February in response to a question by the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell). It is a startling revelation to compare the numbers convicted and the numbers given custodial sentences. One-third of all the people who came before the courts and were convicted of such offences as attempted murder, wounding with intent to do grievous bodily harm, causing explosions, carrying a firearm with intent, hijacking, arson, withholding information, possessing prohibited articles, membership of illegal organisations, and kidnapping and false imprisonment did not receive a custodial sentence. How can one fight terrorism when one-third of the people convicted of these serious offences are not even imprisoned?

Let us take kidnapping, for instance. Of the 11 people charged with that offence between July and December 1978, seven were not gaoled. They were found guilty but were not gaoled. A total of 38 people were charged and found guilty of being a member of an illegal organisation, but 27 of them were not imprisoned. What use is served by this Parliament passing laws relating to offences that terrorists may commit when, once they are brought before the courts and properly tried and sentenced, the sentence is not one that is likely to deter? Four people, for instance, were charged and found guilty of carrying a firearm with intent. Two were not put into prison. That is 50 per cent.

I shall not weary the House but I recommend every hon. Member to examine those figures. We shall never fight terrorism if people found guilty do not receive gaol sentences. I feel strongly that people who are found guilty after a proper trial must receive a sentence that is related to their offence. These offences include attempted murder, kidnapping and arson. On the latter point, everyone knows of the burnings that take place in Northern Ireland. There has been a whole series, in my constituency, of haysheds and farmhouses going up. What do we find in the arson figures? Of the 40 people charged and convicted, 19 were not given a gaol sentence. If we go on with that sort of administration of justice, we shall certainly not deal with terrorism. These are matters to which the House needs to apply itself.

This Act does not deal with a Diplock court. I would like to put on record again that I am opposed to courts without a jury. I voted against this proposal. I stood against it and I continue to stand against it. The suggestion that juries would be intimidated does not wash one iota with me. No one knows who will be members of a jury until it is picked on the trial day. Witnesses are far more likely than jurors to be"got at ". The sooner we return to jury trial in Northern Ireland, the sooner would the objection of those who say that people convicted by a Diplock court are different be taken away. Jury trials would strengthen the forces of law and order, not weaken them. I trust that we shall soon advance to that day.

I am scared about temporary provisions. We had a temporary suspension of Stormont and Stormont went altogether. Temporary measures adopted by this House have a way of becoming permanent. The time has come to face up to the reality of the situation. Knowing the situation in Northern Ireland and knowing what we are up against, I feel, however, that the Government are duty bound to have in their possession an arsenal of weapons by which they can defeat terrorism. This Act is needed to deal with terrorism when it spills over into this part of the United Kingdom. No one in Northern Ireland would like any part of Great Britain or the world to suffer in the way we have suffered. We would like to see the rest of the citizens of this country saved from the awful scourge that has occurred in Northern Ireland in the past 10 years.