Prevention of Terrorism Debate (MR. Speaker's Ruling)

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 21 Mawrth 1979.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr William Craig Mr William Craig , Belfast East 12:00, 21 Mawrth 1979

The temptation to follow the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) on all the points that he raised is enormous, but if I did so I fear I would incur your wrath, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I may not have the same skill as the hon. Member in skating on the borderline of order. However, he started a lot of false hares which, if allowed to go unchallenged, would do enormous harm.

I do not intend to discuss the character of Dr. Irwin, save to say that we have not been told why he did not file the necessary reports to the authorities in support of his allegations, as the law requires.

I intend to speak only to the excellent review that we have had from Lord Shackleton. I join with other hon. Members in congratulating him. His was a painstaking study of a difficult and important problem. Few of us could have had any hesitation in supporting the renewal of the order, unpleasant though it may be in terms of academic law.

To get things in proper perspective, I quote from paragraph 160 of the report: I cannot end this report without paying tribute to the skill, determination and indeed courage the police service as a whole has shown in the task of combating terrorism. I conclude by reference to the truism that basic civil liberties include the rights to stay alive and to go about one's business without fear. A society will always seek to defend itself against threats to its security. We must be prepared to forgo some of our civil liberties for a time if that is the cost, on the best assessment we can make, of preserving the essentials. That sets the limit for this debate. It sets the standards to which we must conform if we are concerned about the peace and well-being of our fellow citizens and the rule of law.

My question is not whether we should renew the order but whether we are doing enough. Rightly, hon. Members have complained that this sort of order has prevailed for too long. But that is only because we have been unable to cope successfully and adequately with the problem of terrorism. We are talking of a matter of life and death. We are discussing horrible mutilation. These are no ordinary crimes. They represent the degeneration of civilised beings to an all-time low in our democratic society. We must all ask ourselves how a democratic society can, through the ballot box, solve the problem and contain those who cast it aside and seek a solution by the bomb and the bullet.

I respect the hon. Member for Belfast, West in his courageous condemnation of the outrages perpetrated by the IRA. Anyone who questions his integrity is doing him a great disservice. However, with all humility and sincerity I must say to him that it is all right to condemn something but he should go further and apply his mind to containing it and defeating it. We must consider what sacrifices we are prepared to make to ensure that the rule of law prevails.

I regret very much—even making allowances for electioneering—that the hon. Member for Belfast, West protested too much. He may not wish to attack the police generally; he may just wish to highlight wrongs. Even one wrong merits severe condemnation. But it is my judgment, and that of many of my fellow citizens, that the manner in which he protested goes well beyond what is necessary. It is seen as a condemnation of the law and its guardians. In the interests of us all, I ask the hon. Member to address his mind to how we can enforce the law to deal with this desperate evil.

The fundamental weakness is the uncertainty in the minds of the terrorists of the will of the Government about enforcing the law. There are those who say that the troops should leave. I wonder whether they realise how dangerous that is. That incites terrorism. I exonerate the Government from any intention to bow to force and violence by pulling out the troops. But it is our duty to see that the Government's message is clearly and firmly understood. We must get the message across that no bomb or bullet will ever cause the British to pull out of Northern Ireland. We must say loud and clear to the world that the British are not chickens. We must remind people of that historical phrase"Some chicken, some neck ".

As well as the aspect of bringing out the troops, there is the whole constitutional and political set-up which can only give aid and comfort to the terrorists. The sooner that the ambiguity is cleared up, the better for those who want to see a return to law, order, peace and stability.

Direct rule is a constitutional nightmare. It is an aberration of all that is fair, right and democratic. All hon. Members should face their responsibilities. If the right decision cannot be reached quickly on a proper form of devolution for Northern Ireland, we should admit failure and Northern Ireland should be governed as an integral part of the United Kingdom. The indefinite constitutional aberration cannot continue. We must make up our minds or the terrorist will continue to exploit the uncertainty and suspicion that the Government and Parliament might yield to the bomb and the bullet.

There are a number of points in the excellent review that are well worth pondering. I am glad that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is present because he is concerned about the matter that is dealt with in paragraph 148—access to solicitors. Recently I said to the House that, as a solicitor, I believed that this was a right not to be easily interfered with and I was anxious that it should be maintained. The Secretary of State has indicated what was in his mind. The review does not recommend an unconditional right of access to a solicitor after 48 hours. I believe that the purpose of detention, even for short periods, can be justified only if it is for the purpose of inquiring into a threat to the peace or an outrage that has been committed. Detention must be capable of allowing useful and constructive interrogation to take place. I hope that the matter will be examined at considerable length.

I agree with the Home Secretary on the points that he is prepared to accept. It is reasonable to accept the recommendation that detention should be limited to a period of seven days. I say that as a politician and a lawyer, not as one who is skilled and has knowledge of the interrogation of difficult crime. I do not doubt that, in combating crime—whether terrorism or other crime—interrogation is perhaps the most valuable weapon in the hands of the police. Some hon. Members may be disturbed by the number of convictions that are obtained because of confessions. However, more and more that must be the pattern of law enforcement of the criminal law and we cannot escape from it. We should address our minds to ensuring that the interrogation is carried out within strict definitions of conduct and propriety. At the same time, we should not exclude the many modern techniques that are available to assist in worth while and productive interrogation.

I support the recommendation and acceptance that detention at court should be limited on the authority of the police to a period of 48 hours. The lines of communication in this country are good enough for the extension of that detention by a higher authority if it is felt to be justified.

I do not quarrel with the Home Secretary's acceptance of the recommendation that orders of exclusion should be reviewed after three years, although it is a difficult burden to impose upon a hard-pressed section of the police and the Home Office.

I positively support the Home Secretary in his decision about section 11. That important section deals with the withholding of information. I was glad that the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) was precise and accurate in his support of the Home Secretary's decision. I am tempted to ponder whether the present law goes far enough, but this is not the proper place to delve too deeply into the matter.

However, we have been tempted by others who have found fault with what we are doing. But it is easy to find fault, provided the question"What is the alternative if that is not done?"is not asked. There are two distinct approaches to the combating of terrorism. We are now dealing with the preventive approach, which is the most important approach—to prevent the outrages that have horrified and shocked the outside world on so many occasions in recent times. The other approach is to detect, prosecute and, I hope, obtain convictions of those who perpetrate the outrages.

The preventive side needs to be enhanced and strengthened in every way possible. It is easy to say that, but it is not so easy to make constructive proposals. I am tempted to think that there is a case for what was known as"excutive detention"in Northern Ireland. I should not like to think that that is a weapon which has been discarded permanently. It should be continually reviewed, not only in the light of the existing problem in Northern Ireland but in the light of problems in the rest of the United Kingdom.

I do not speak with the authority of either the Home Secretary or the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, but I digest what is reported in the newspapers and other channels of communication. The reports indicate that, far from terrorism being well under control, it is likely to escalate—even if for only a brief time. Recently reports in the newspapers—whether or not they are to be believed—suggest that another campaign is envisaged in Great Britain. I find it a sad reflection on Parliament and Government that, after all the years of violence, we have to admit that our citizens are still at risk.

Reference has been made to the wave of strong feeling that was felt in this country after the Birmingham bombings. One can only speculate what the wave of feeling would be if Canvey Island had been the catastrophe that it could so easily have been. We should appreciate that this is not something to be treated as a matter of routine, endorsed and then left. There must be a developing and continuing campaign to defeat terrorism in all its forms.

I would not depart from the basic approach of the United Kingdom. If we look at our neighbour, the Republic of Ireland, we shall see that it has moved in directions in which we should not go. For example, proscribed organisations in the Republic face an onerous law which we could not subscribe to. It is sufficient for a senior police officer to say to a court in the Republic that he has reason to believe that a person belongs to a proscribed organisation. The onus of proof is on the defendant to prove his innocence. We must avoid that approach at all costs. Whatever we do must be, as far as possible, within the traditions of British judicial history. A man must have the right to be assumed innocent until proved otherwise.

However, we are left with the problems of prevention and suspects. If we are to deal with them, it would be better to do so through executive detention rather than by distorting the judicial process.

The hon. Member for Belfast, West referred to the nature of courts in Northern Ireland. I do not believe that we should follow the example of the Republic and set up special courts to deal with the problem of terrorism. If necessary, we should modify our system in the light of peculiarly difficult circumstances. Setting up special courts of a military or Star Chamber character would be wholly wrong.

My colleagues and I deplore the necessity for the renewal of the order, but none of us has the slightest doubt about the propriety of supporting the renewal. We are convinced that the Government and Parliament must do much more and must not fall into the trap of trying to contain terrorism within bounds that the public will accept. It must be rooted out.

Let us make sure that the IRA is under no illusion that the bomb or the bullet can win any objective for it, whether a short-term legal advantage or political or constitutional advantage. Getting rid of existing ambiguities should be a high priority in the Government's policy. I look forward, if not in the short time left for this Parliament, then at least in the early days of the next, to seeing all those uncertainties ended. I believe that the law will then start to triumph.