Since we are debating the"take note"motion and the draft order together, perhaps it would be helpful if I made clear at the outset that the Conservative Party supports the continuation of the Act, subject, of course, to any changes which the Home Secretary may seek to make by bringing orders before the House for approval, a matter to which I shall return later.

Obviously, we view this legislation, and have always viewed it, in common with all right hon. and hon. Members, with some unease. That is bound to be so from the libertarian standpoint. But we have always recognised that this is part, and these debates are part, of the enormously difficult dilemma facing a free society trying to defend itself against terrorism. In that light, we have in the past supported the Home Secretary in his belief that the Act should be renewed, and we support him again today.

Especially in present circumstances, we are convinced that the Act should continue. As the Home Secretary said, some people may say or think that there has been a lull in acts of atrocity. But we have a heavy electoral season ahead, and the Home Secretary was right to note the threat from the Provisional IRA that it would try to disrupt our elections.

In these circumstances, we believe, it would be utterly foolish to do anything which might weaken our capacities in any way at this time in the fight against terrorism.

Before coming to the Shackleton report, I shall make some general points about the campaign and the fight against terrorism as it is being carried on and as we have sought as a nation to carry it on in recent years.

First—this is obvious but always worth repeating, I think—there will be no progress without the express and expressed political will to counter terrorism with every available means. That is the first requirement. Without it, nothing else will carry forward. Secondly, we need the necessary legislation, and part of our debate is about that. Thirdly, we need first-class intelligence and, of course, an efficient and strong police force with high morale to use the intelligence and carry out counter-terrorist activities.

I hope that we have both first-class intelligence and a strong police force. On intelligence, we rely upon the Home Secretary to assure us, as I hope he can, that the Metropolitan Police special branch is strong enough to deal with the enormous growth in the amount of work which must face it. I believe that an hon. Member on the Government Benches told the House some time ago that over the past 20 years this branch had doubled, or rather less than doubled, in strength. I trust that this is enough to cope with an increase in the volume of activity which must be well more than double. We would value a comment on that when the Home Secretary speaks again, if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I join gladly with the Home Secretary in thanking the police for their skill, vigilance and efforts in this most difficult of all work—counter-terrorism. The Opposition welcome signs that the police forces' numbers are picking up, although we have to say that the rate of premature resignations of skilled and experienced people is still very worrying. It was higher last year—the Home Secretary confirmed this—than it has ever been before in the recorded history of these statistics. That reinforces our view—we have put it forward before—that the Edmund-Davies pay proposals should have been adopted at once instead of being phased over a 12-month period.

We think that high morale in the police is absolutely crucial, and nowhere more so than in this area. This is related not just to questions of pay. It is also vital that our whole arrangements for criminal justice—I do not think that one can quite call it a system of criminal justice—do not frustrate police action against terror.

I now turn briefly to the Shackleton report itself. Again, I associate myself and my hon. Friends with the Home Secretary in thanking Lord Shackleton for his work in producing this report. The first thing to which I call attention is that while Lord Shackleton rightly warns us against taking a dogmatic view for or against the prevention of terrorism legislation and arguing either, on the one side, that it is the answer to terrorism, or, on the other side, that it does not have the slightest effect, he does not cast doubt on the need for legislation of this type—although he emphasises the hope that the temporary concept will remain at the centre of it. That confirms and echoes our view about this legislation as a whole.

As to the detailed recommendations and Lord Shackleton's detailed examination, let me come first to exclusion orders—that is, sections 3 to 9 of the 1976 Act. I think that we accept the case for review of orders. We noted the Home Secretary's proposals for how he wants to carry that out. I confess—and my right hon. and hon. Friends who have spoken about this legislation in previous years have made this clear—that this is the part of the Act about which we are least enthusiastic. We have never been greatly taken by the view that gains are made by moving people from one part of the United Kingdom to another, and we have expressed doubts in the past.

However, in paragraph 130 of the report, on the matter of prevention, Lord Shackleton says—and we have to accept it— the police have no doubt that exclusion has made a significant contribution in this respect. Therefore, if that is the considered view of the police, and the Home Secretary reinforced it, I have to say that that is what we must accept, despite our twinge—more than a twinge—our feeling of unease about the particular arrangements under the exclusion sections.

I gladly support the Home Secretary in his decision not to let section 11 drop. I see what Lord Shackleton was worried about. He puts his worries very clearly. But, as the Home Secretary says, the police are now making use of this section in their anti-terrorist efforts, and it would be quite wrong to consider the idea of dropping the section by order at this stage. Therefore, we support the Home Secretary in his decision to keep that section.

I come next to what are the most difficult and controversial parts of all of this legislation—sections 12 and 13, powers of what is, in effect, as the report recognises, detention for questioning.

Let me say at the outset of my comments on these sections that we accept the suggestions of Lord Shackleton for amelioration, which the Home Secretary mentioned. We note, and we think right, Lord Shackleton's views in paragraph 148 about the use of limited discretion by the police in allowing access to a solicitor. This must be right. Of course, this is something which the Royal Commission on criminal procedure will be looking at, again as Lord Shackleton notes. I think I am right in saying—the right hon. Gentleman will confirm this—that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has now promised that in Northern Ireland those in custody should have the right—he has used the word"right "—after 48 hours to have access to a solicitor.

Therefore, the Shackleton report, the evidence and views being submitted to the Royal Commission and the points made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland all seem to be moving in the same direction. We think that this is probably the right direction.

I also note the Home Secretary's views about bringing powers at the ports into line with inland powers, as recommended by Lord Shackleton, and note that the right hon. Gentleman will be bringing forward an order. However, I must sound a note of caution. Lord Shackleton recommends this, but I believe that we must be very careful about this matter. Governments are rightly criticised—the Home Secretary will be the first to know this—when dangerous people, violent people and people who threaten our society, slip in and out of this country. We must do absolutely nothing which increases that danger. Therefore, I have to sound that note of caution about the decision of the Home Secretary to accept that recommendation and to move an order accordingly. We shall want to think about it.

The conclusion of Lord Shackleton about the whole of section 12 is that it is, in his words,"regrettably necessary ". That is also our view. Of course we recognise that charges are few in relation to detentions, and the figures confirm that. But what the statistics do not tell us is how much information is being acquired, how many offences are prevented, and how much suffering, horror, misery and cruelty are avoided as a result of the detention and the information gained. None of these things is reflected in the statistics; none could be, by the nature of this legislation. Yet those things are just as important or as vital and weigh just as much in the balance as figures and statistics in examining, from the libertarian point of view, the value of this measure in the fight against terrorism.

In concluding these brief remarks, broadly in support of the Home Secretary but with one or two qualifications, I echo Lord Shackleton in a comment that he makes in his introduction, when he says that our experience with this legislation has made us aware and is making us aware of the need for a new look, a review—I think that we need a cool new look—at the whole question of police powers and procedures—it is not just terrorism that drives us that way; it is the high crime rate generally, which is pushing us in the same direction—and that this is the centre of the work of the Royal Commission on criminal procedure.

I reiterate what my right hon. Friends and others have said previously. The work of that Royal Commission is most urgent and very important to the efforts of our society in the near future in dealing with all kinds of crime, including the most violent and revolting crimes of political terrorism.

Meanwhile, and in the light of those facts, of course, the fight against terrorist violence must continue relentlessly. There must be no will to weaken or slacken for a moment because that, obviously, as the Home Secretary recognises and all hon. Members must recognise, would be to surrender what is still a free and reasonably open society to the forces of evil, and none of us came into public life to do that.