Supplementary.

Part of Clause 2 – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 20 Rhagfyr 1973.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Edward Leadbitter Mr Edward Leadbitter , Hartlepools, The 12:00, 20 Rhagfyr 1973

I beg to move Amendment No. 15, in page 3, line 14, after 'instrument', insert 'and subject to approval by affirmative resolution of this House'. We now come to a point of some importance which concerns whether the procedure to be followed involves an affirmative or negative resolution of the House. I feel I must take some care in dealing with this point because, since the last edition of Erskine May was printed, the Select Committee on Stautory Instruments has established new procedures in respect of affirmative and negative resolutions. Although the Joint Committee on Delegated Legislation in the first instance examines orders with great care in terms of their propriety and legal framework, there still arises the question by which resolution the matter should be covered.

The Minister may well be able to give us an assurance that the second stage of the changes laid down in the procedural requirements in Erskine May is satisfied by the establishment of Standing Committees for the examination of the instrument beyond the points of propriety and the legal sense of the instrument. But I must counter that by suggesting that taking an instrument, which is subject to the negative procedure, before a Standing Committee takes away from the House its powers to examine it.

So far as I am aware, the affirmative procedure is to indicate the importance of an instrument. The test is that the Government have to bring it before the House. That test is supported by the fact that parliamentary practice has established that that procedure is adopted when matters of substance and important portions of delegated legislation need to have a high degree of scrutiny. That does not apply to the negative procedure, even though in Standing Committee, because the matter is closed in Standing Committee.

Even so, the outstanding objection is that finally the negative procedure, having gone through the steps I have outlined, is still subject to catching the attention of an hon. Member. We all know what happens. Labour Governments as well as Conservative Governments have used the lateness of the hour to get by the ordinary Member, who has perhaps not been so careful as he might have been, or has been so busy that he has not noticed a statutory instrument in time to put down a Prayer to seek its annulment.

We are dealing with a matter which concerns people very much. I can see that the questions of deciding electoral areas and specifying the numbers of councillors and times of elections are matters which can follow the areas of consultation which the Minister has described. I readily accept that now. The corollary is that the end product of the exercise and related matters should come before the House on the affirmative procedure.

The affirmative procedure enables the House of Commons to fulfil its traditional rôle. We proceed on the basis that the Government must bring their order to the House. The Government having come to the House of Commons, they must submit the order to a debate lasting at least 1½ hours after 10 p.m., no matter what the business may be and no matter what Standing Order is invoked to interfere with the business during the day. Even though there is a debate under Standing Order No 9, which occupies some hours during the day, the affirmative procedure enables the House of Commons to debate an order for 1½ hours.

Not so with the negative procedure. I concede that the Select Committee on Procedure has done much to try to deal with the difficulty, but we must make it clear that no matter what happens in the Joint Committee and the Standing Committee, once a statutory instrument becomes subject to the negative procedure the debate is closed at 11.30 p.m. The business could carry on till 11·25 p.m. and we would be left with only five minutes. The usual channels ensure that "a Nelson" is done and it is forgotten about, but a back bencher who feels seriously about the matter must be very much awake; and he has only five minutes to deal with it.

I am ready to accept the Minister's good intentions as to enlarging areas of consultation, should that be required. After that, when we have to deal with specific statutory instruments the right thing to do, when it involves the public and electoral matters, is to employ the affirmative procedure.