Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 20 Rhagfyr 1973.
With your leave, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to reply to the debate.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Denis Howell) drew attention first to what he called the terribly expensive reorganisation. Certainly, expense is involved in reorganising local government from 1,400 local authorities to about 400. It has been taken into account in the rate support grant, after full discussion with local authorities, in considering what sort of expenditure both local and central government can expect in the reorganisation.
I do not think that there is any squabble about the figures for the sum taken into account in the rate support grant. I hope that we have given full consideration to what would normally be expected in setting up new authorities from the old authorities. Where our expectations have gone wrong is in connection with staffing. The hon. Gentleman spoke about his anxiety in that regard, and it is my anxiety. I have discussed the matter with individual local authorities very fully in the past few weeks. It seemed that some have been able to devise an establishment which employed no more than the authorities which had been merged, but in others the establishment has increased by perhaps 50 per cent. over the numbers employed by the authorities which merged to form that district or new county authority.
It is not possible to judge the matter purely by the numbers employed in the previous districts which have been merged or have become the county, because the functions have changed. To study the matter carefully one must examine the functions being undertaken by the new authority and whether it is engaging too great a staff for those functions. I was attracted by the hon. Gentleman's suggestion that a feasibility study should begin at once into the cost of reorganisation from the staffing point of view.
We have probably taken into account the question of new offices. With the need to restrain building, we shall have to do with existing offices. I think that a very close study should be carried out quickly into the establishment of the new authorities. I am sure that the public will expect that a reduction in the number of local authorities from 1,400 to 400 should lead to a streamlining of staff. However, it must be remembered that the functions have changed.
The hon. Member for Small Heath talked about threats being made by Ministers against local government, and he rather associated that with the question of staff increases. What Ministers have been doing is to call the attention of those in local government to the fact that their enthusiasm for local government has in many cases run away with them and that the public will look askance at the increase in salaries and in staff which is occurring in some authorities. Other authorities have been very careful and have carried out the streamlining which is possible.
We propose to issue a circular to local authorities saying not only where cuts can be made in accordance with the requests of the Chancellor of the Exchequer but also that local authorities should show economy in their new staffing.
The hon. Member for Small Heath said that the two-tier system was bound to increase the cost. I do not think so. If we are reducing the number of local authorities by the figures which I have mentioned, there should be a streamlining in the staffs and a possibility of employing fewer.
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not attacking local authorities in his statements concerning local authority expenditure. To use the words he employed, there is at present autonomy in local government over current expenditure. The whole trend—by the previous Government as well as by the present one—is to give local government a greater discretion in the spending of the money which the taxpayer contributes to local government. We have the rate support grant. We are proposing, in the Local Government Bill now before the House, to move a number of other items into the rate support grant and away from specific grants.
When one considers the control which local government has over the amount which the taxpayer contributes, it is only fair for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to point to the responsibility of local government to keep back unnecessary expenditure.