Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 20 Rhagfyr 1973.
On the last motion we discussed some of the qualities of the House and the present debate is one of the three great safeguards in parliamentary procedure, the other two being consultation before legislation and no taxation before representation. We are now concerned with what is technically known as grievances before Adjournment, and I do not wish to support the motion now before the House until the Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House has had an opportunity to reply to some points of which I have given notice.
Much has been said about the difficulty in which Parliament finds itself. As a relative newcomer here, I feel that the machinery is less wanting than the way in which we sometimes use it, which is probably true of any human organisation. We always try to change the machinery when we ought really to look more frequently at the way we use it. I wish to draw the attention of the Lord President to three matters on which he should offer some explanation to the House.
For the last three or four weeks during business questions I have pressed points related to the general scheme of preferences and to the discussions going on about draft regulations of the EEC. Indeed, together with my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) and supported by 100 hon. Members, I have tabled Early Day Motion No. 88 on the subject. That motion asks that the Lord President should find time for a debate before a final decision is made, but I do not want to go into its merits now, because this afternoon I am concerned with procedure.
A fortnight ago, the Lord President kindly said that he would look into the matter and see whether it was physically possible for this House to have a debate before a final decision was taken. Last Thursday, he said, as reported at col. 666,
As regards the improvements for the Community's generalised preference scheme, this is a continuing process with no final deadline."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 13th December 1973; Vol. 866, c. 666.]
But, as I think he knows, his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, replying to the debate last Monday, said quite specifically, as reported at col. 1081,
The GSP scheme generally will come into force on 1st January."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December 1973; Vol. 866, c. 1081.]
Furthermore, the Lord President will have heard his right hon. Friend the Minister responsible for European Affairs replying a few minutes ago to a question of mine. He said that the new scheme will come into force on 1st January and that final details are being ironed out, but that the main decisions have been made. In reply to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West, he said that he did not think he would be dissatisfied with the result.
I feel that the Leader of the House should have been frank and admitted that we had no time for a debate, that the matter had already been decided elsewhere and that it was inappropriate for us to discuss it now. But instead of that he made a statement which was quite contrary to what we heard in this House on Monday, and to what his right hon. Friend said only a few moments ago. I am quite prepared to accept that there is a fault in my reasoning, but the onus is upon the Leader of the House to explain what has gone wrong. He read last week what I think was a prepared statement, and there may have been a mistake.
This is not the only time that there has been a difference of opinion between members of the Government in the state-
ments which they have made in the House. Consistency in statements is of fundamental importance to the confidence which hon. Members have in each other and which the public has in this House. If we spend all our time checking what has been said by members of Governments, of whatever party, we shall be in grave difficulty. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture said in a debate on food prices earlier this month
No tariffs on food items have yet been imposed or increased under the common external tariff as a result of EEC entry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10th December 1973; Vol 866 c. 99.]
We are quite prepared to accept that, but a few days later we were told by the Under-Secretary of State to the Department of Trade and Industry that the present rate on beef was introduced on 30th April last. He went on:
The reason for repeating the duties and many others in which there is no change is simply to have a complete consolidated order, but that does not affect the issue."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th December 1973; Vol. 866, c. 1084.]
In other words he implied, and for all I know it is true, that food tariffs on beef already exist. That matter was not cleared up at the time.
This may seem a small matter, but tax on food, which was the subject of exchanges across the Floor of the House earlier today, is a matter of great importance to the British public. We shall be in considerable difficulties if Ministers make what appear to be conflicting statements and if a definitive statement, in this case made by the Parliamentary Secretary, is called into question by another Minister. I gave the Leader of the House notice about this matter and asked him to clear it up before we adjourn for the recess.
Some of the difficulties we have been experiencing over EEC matters partly arise because the House has not had time—or rather the Lord President has not seen fit to allow time—to debate the Select Committee report on procedure for EEC regulations. It is a year since we joined the Common Market, yet we have been unable so far to match our procedures with those of the EEC. My views about the EEC and the merits or otherwise of joining it are well known, but irrespective of any view we may take, it is the duty of the House to make sure that the necessary machinery is in position and ready. It should have been in position on 1st January 1973. Since we have not debated this Select Committee report and since we have not decided to take action, the machinery will not even be there on 1st January 1974. A year has passed and we have not even tried out some of the recommendations of the Select Committee. That means we shall be in increasing difficulty not only in connection with ministerial speeches but also on statements such as that made today.
Therefore we should not rise for the Christmas Recess until the Lord President has said why he has not found time for the subject. This sort of thing calls into question the efficiency and prestige of this House. It was quite rightly said during our discussion on the retirement of the Clerk of the House that we have one of the best systems of democracy in the world. It is not the system which is at fault but the way in which we use it. Unless the Leader of the House expedites debates on these procedures, history's verdict on him will be that he did not serve the best interests of the House and its democratic processes to which we pay tribute.
The good name of this House is bound up with this. Our procedure must not only be good, it must be seen to be good. The fact that we have not debated this matter, and the consequent difficulties of that, mean that we are not seen to be doing our job. I hope the Lord President will tell us what he intends to do about it.