Orders of the Day — Northern Ireland Constitution (Amendment) Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 13 Rhagfyr 1973.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr William Van Straubenzee Mr William Van Straubenzee , Wokingham 12:00, 13 Rhagfyr 1973

The hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) reminded us in his closing remarks that we were talking about flesh and blood, the very lives of people in Northern Ireland. Nevertheless it must be right, when the House is considering the Bill and the associated orders—two at least of which are most complex—that it should expect me to examine these measures closely and to answer the points made with as much information as possible.

I was asked by the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) about the salary of what I call the new Members of the Executive—that is, those who appear for the first time in the Bill. It is proposed that all the Members of the new Northern Ireland administration should receive the same salary, except the Chief Executive, who is in a different category. The salary will be provided for by means of an Order in Council, under Section 9 of the Constitution Act, which is not subject to a parliamentary procedure. In other words, there will not be, in financial terms, first and second class citizens among heads of department and others appointed by my right hon. Friend.

The hon. Gentleman was doubtful whether there was sufficient flexibility in the Bill. There is greater flexibility in the formula in the Bill than there was in the Constitution Act. I should have thought that the House, in any circumstance like this, would want to have control over the maximum figure and would not be prepared to give carte blanche in respect of the numbers of the Executive. That is why there is an upper figure.

The hon. Gentleman asked me for a list of the transferred functions. I will gladly consider whether there is a convenient way of giving this. But what we are talking about is listing all the functions of government other than those which are expressly kept back in one or other of the two schedules. The hon. Gentleman, with his long experience in government, will know that this is a formidable task and, by its nature, is never likely to be complete. Although I will look at the matter again, that is a reservation which I must make.

The hon. Gentleman reasonably asked whether a transferred matter could be clawed back by this House. If we are talking about the powers being devolved, the answer is "Not by this House". It could be clawed back if the Assembly passed a resolution to that effect, praying that that should happen, and if a draft Order in Council to that effect were laid before Parliament and approved. But it is not open to this House to claw back the powers being devolved.

The hon. Member for Leeds, South and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) and others raised a legitimate point which they detected with their eagle eye, namely, the reason for a certain change in terminology between the word "Office" and the word "Department" as they appeared in earlier statements and the present one. When we looked at the matter more closely, we felt that it was the intention of Parliament, that the Offices, as they were previously referred to, should have been subject to the scrutiny of a consultative committee of the Assembly in precisely the same way as the Departments should be.

In order to conform with the requirements of the Constitution Act, the proposed language is necessary. That is the reason for use of the word "Department" rather than "Office". That is a change. I realise that the matter is not easy to follow when we are dealing with a chain of interlocked documents. It is necessary first to create two new Ministries. They will have a very short life—almost of minutes. They will then change into Departments by the subsequent order. It is not easy to explain simply, and I understand why my hon. Friend does not at first find it easy to follow, but that is the sequence of events, and I hope that he will find it helpful.

I was asked by the hon. Member for Leeds, South whether further legislation would be required in respect of Departments. He had in mind that some of the existing Northern Ireland Departments will have to have the boundaries of their functions redelineated. These matters, including in one case a change of name, which are necessary to give full effect to the agreement between the parties will be done by a transfer of functions order. That is not subject to parliamentary pro- cedure. Subject to the business today, I expect that order to be made by my right hon. Friend before long and certainly before 1st January. I will write to the hon. Gentleman about the detailed points he raised on the Documentary Evidence Act and similar matters.

My hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, North (Mr. Stratton Mills) asked about the studies envisaged in what has come to be known as the communiqué from Sunningdale. The studies of the functions of the Council of Ireland will initially be started at official level between North and South with United Kingdom participation.

I am asked for a little more explanation of the position of the police authority. The White Paper stated that the police authority would be reconstituted to include elected representatives, and the district councils would form the basis of local committees with advisory responsibilities. On my right hon. Friend's behalf I have written to all those responsible, and I believe that the local committees will be important in providing closer association between locally elected people, and others, and the police. The police very much welcome this arrangement.

I do not want to raise the temperature of the debate at this late hour, but in dealing with certain matters raised by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) I am entitled to place quietly and firmly on the record that subsequent to the agreement between the parties the hon. Gentleman—as he will readily concede—received three letters from the former Secretary of State inviting the hon. Gentleman to see him about his wish to attend Sunningdale. Those were unconditional and open invitations. I am not criticising the hon. Gentleman for refusing to accept the first two, but eventually he came to see my right hon. Friend shortly after his appointment, when I was present. There were placed before him and Mr. Craig those unconditional invitations to come and discuss the matter.

I was sent by my right hon. Friend to Northern Ireland at the time of the Sunningdale talks, and I know from personal knowledge that a special plane was kept on stand-by until the morning of the conference. I personally supervised these arrangements. With the minimum of inconvenience and personal trouble, the hon. Gentleman and Mr. Craig could have been transported to Sunningdale, and back, in order that they might make their representations if they wished. When these accusations are made it is right and proper that the matter should be clearly put on the record.