Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 12 Rhagfyr 1973.
I shall quote from the speech of the Minister of State for Defence on 15th March. He said:
Defence policy goes in step with foreign policy; and if, as we hope, world conditions change, and in particular if Western and Eastern Europe move into a more normal and civilised relationship, then of course, our defence policy will be suitably adapted. No one wants to spend more on defence than he needs to, and if we get a chance to reduce our expenditure we shall take it."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th March 1973; Vol. 927, c. 1503.]
But history suggests we are more likely to spend too little on defence than too much.
If we are to fit in defence policy with our present foreign policy, surely we will have to spend more or at least maintain an equivalent rate and not have any of the cuts which we are told we shall have? I represent a Service town. There is anxiety—and I am sure that the anxiety is on a national level—about the cuts which may take place; people are anxious that they will make a difference to the whole of the Western area.
I have recently been to China. The Chinese people are practical about these matters. They are building air raid shelters in every one of their major towns. They are spending money on providing shelters when they would much prefer to be spending money on improving the standard of living of their people. However, they see the necessity to spend money on air raid shelters because of the terrible tension which exists throughout the world.
We know that has been well demonstrated by recent events in the Middle East. Those events will affect the lives of millions of people, and we shall not, for example, be able to continue to help the poorer nations if we cannot maintain growth because of industrial action or because of the lack of oil.
We must remember that Russia has reinforced its frontier with China, but it has not depleted its forces in Europe. That is why the Chinese are so wise to be ready and we should take their example and not necessarily build air raid shelters, but be ready for any eventualities which may occur in the not too distant future.
I am now a delegate to the Western European Union. The European countries must reach agreement to bring into effect much better co-operation. Europe cannot defend itself without France and the United States. The Western European Union should contribute more to the services which are rendered by the United States.
It seems that there is no real European defence policy or armaments policy and if we are not prepared to have such a policy we are wasting money and time going to the many meetings of various organisations, such as the Western European Union, NATO, the Euro-group and the North Atlantic Alliance, which I suppose is probably the most successful organisation in co-ordinating the defence policies of Europe and America.
It seems that there is too much overlapping and unnecessary expense in producing individual weapons and ships Surely it should be agreed between the different nations that overlapping should be avoided. It seems ridiculous that France, for example, should be building tanks, that Germany should be building tanks, and that we should be building tanks, without knowing the exact number of tanks which each country is building. It would be better for one nation to build tanks and for other nations to make other necessary weapons, so that would avoid overlapping.
The navies have too many frigates, in comparison with other ships—or, rather, they are out of proportion with the other ships of the various navies.
I gather that defence costs over £3,000 million. BAOR costs about £354 million and that RAF General Purposes Combat Force about £496 million and we cannot afford to cut any of those sums. I support what has been said about trying to shed some of the high costs of education, housing, welfare services and pensions. The latter, for example, costs approximately £173 million. Whitehall costs about £69 million. It is difficult to discover the exact details, but local administration costs £184 million and family and personal services cost £90 million. None of that money is used for the defence of the country. It is used to help the people who are defending our country. However, they must have the equipment to use for our defence. The money which we are spending should be separated, so that we know what we are spending on equipment, arms and hardware and what we are spending on other services.
I recently visited the Property Services Agency—at the beginning of the debate there was talk about housing for the Services—and was greatly impressed by the improved standard not only of the accommodation, but of the layout of the estates. Some of this new accommodation will appeal greatly to Service families. There is the difficulty of having estates which are too large—for example, Rowner. We should not in future have such large estates, with so many people of one profession living together. I should prefer to see much smaller units.
Cities like Plymouth are extremely short of housing accommodation for ordinary civilians, some of whom have been on housing lists for several years. Therefore, I suggest that a certain number of houses should be built for sale to people who intend to continue in the Services—in other words, to re-engage. This is not a new idea; I have put it forward on other occasions. But it seems sensible that if people intend to re-engage and complete their 22 years' service they should be allowed to buy a house.
I am very worried—there are not many hon. Members on the Opposition benches at the moment to whom I can put my worries—about the suggested cut of £1,000 million on defence expenditure. Coming from a dockyard town, I am worried that such a cut might affect the workers there if that threat were carried out.
I should like an assurance about employment in the dockyards. Advertisements have been put in newspapers asking for more people, but if we are to have cuts in the Services, what will happen to the people who are taken on? Will they have to leave their jobs shortly? Some grades are offered wages which are too low. I know many men who have two jobs, or whose wives have to go out to work in the evenings. I understand that there is to be a review of wages paid to dockyard workers. How will that be affected by stage 3?
My hon. Friend may like to know that since the girl apprentices scheme started at the Royal dockyards there has been a competition, which has been won by Rosyth, with Devonport in second place. I shall be entertaining the winners at the House after Christmas. I thank him for agreeing to them entering, because the scheme has been a great success.
I should like to know what is to happen when we have the Armed Forces pay review in April. At the moment there is an extremely poor relationship between civilian and Service pay. This is one reason why people are not re-engaging.
I should now like to make my annual plea for the pre-1950 widows. I suppose that this appeal will again fall on deaf ears—perhaps for economic reasons. I have just received a letter dated 10th December from a lady whose husband served on HMS "Repulse". He gave marvellous service, joined up again in the last war, and was demobbed in 1945. He died just a few months ago. His widow is left without a pension after the splendid service that he gave during all those years.
I should like to pay special tribute to the Royal Marines who have been serving in Ulster; some of them have been to Ulster probably more times than other in our Services. Some troops have been at least twice, and others four times.
It is essential to get a better understanding and co-ordination with our allies, especially Europe and the United States, so that we may feel reassured that we have some protection in this tense world. And we also want to play our part, in trying to maintain the future peace of the world.