Orders of the Day — Defence Estimates

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 12 Rhagfyr 1973.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Robert Maclennan Mr Robert Maclennan Shadow Spokesperson (Defence) 12:00, 12 Rhagfyr 1973

I followed with great interest the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member for Eye (Colonel Sir H. Harrison) as chairman of the Defence Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee. I endorse and support his view that if hon. Members are to take a more informed part in defence debates, including the area of public expenditure which is of such massive importance, they should be supplied with information of the kind which he and his committee have been seeking so assiduously.

I congratulate the hon. and gallant Member and his committee upon the most important work which has been done in the face of a notable reluctance on the part of Ministers to volunteer detailed information on many projects of considerable cost. There is no doubt that there is real difficulty for the Government in determining what information can be given without jeopardising our defence effort. However, there is a widespread view in the House that the line is being drawn too restrictively and that insufficient information is being given to enable the House to exercise proper long-term control over our defence expenditure.

First, I make a constituency point concerning the future of the naval nuclear propulsion programme which is now under discussion and upon which it is expected decisions will be reached in the next few months. The matter is of importance to my constituency because of the establishment of HMS "Vulcan" where research work is being done on nuclear propulsion for the Navy. It is hoped that a second phase will be authorised by the Government to enable that extremely valuable research establishment to continue its work not only under the current programme towards the end of the decade but in the following years. If the Minister can say anything about that matter it would be of great interest to my constituents.

I now turn to the wider issues which are posed by the debate. I welcome the fact that the debate is being held now. In the past it has been unsatisfactory to have concentrated all our defence debates into the early spring season. There is a certain artificiality in having a season for defence debates. The timeliness of the debate is clear in the light of the developments in NATO during the past two months.

I begin by considering the east-west issues which now confront NATO. It is too early to formulate any conclusive ideas on how useful the multilateral discussions on disarmament and European security will be. Initial debating postures have been struck both at the MBFR conference in Vienna and in the other talks. The background to the talks is somewhat sombre, although I and my hon. Friends place great hope in their coming to some fruitful conclusions.

However, we notice the quantitative and qualitative increase in the Soviet Union's military effort in recent months. We view with some disquiet the fact that, notwithstanding the protestations being made by the Soviet Union at the opening of the talks on mutual and balanced force reduction, it is going ahead with the perfection of its strategic nuclear weapons, improved MIRV's and, at the same time, the improvement of its tactical weaponry, especially tanks. That is a somewhat sombre backdrop to the present discussions. We view the discussions with considerable caution but not without hope.

It is in west-west relations that there has been the most dramatic development since the outbreak of war in the Middle East. The disarray in which the Western alliance found itself in consequence of the unleashing of the fighting was deplored and regretted in a series of earlier debates. It is a matter of some satisfaction that the United States administration, and particularly Dr. Kissinger, appears to have recognised that the fault lay not only in the European members of the alliance but at least in part in the failures of the consultation procedures adequately to provide information about the intentions of the allies.

I take it that Dr. Kissinger's opening speech in Brussels, in which he stated that the permanent representatives of the NATO Council should look urgently into ideas for a more systematic programme of consultation, amounted to something of an amende honorable, an admission that all was not happy in the alliance relationship.

The meeting of NATO Ministers appears to have been very constructive, as was the prior meeting of the Euro-Group. I should have liked to hear more detail from the Minister of State about what was achieved at that conference. One matter was the apparent decision to reorganise Europe's air defences by the proposed merging of two commands into a single centre of command. This seems to have considerable strategic significance in that the two commands—the British and United States Commands—hitherto appear to have pursued somewhat different objectives. Whereas the United Kingdom's effort seems to have been primarily directed towards supporting ground forces, the United States effort seems to have been capable of being used in action against enemy aircraft and in strategic actions undertaken a considerable way behind enemy lines. It would be of interest to know which philosophy is to prevail if the two commands are to be merged and under whose aegis of command the new air defence structure will lie.