Orders of the Day — Channel Tunnel Bill

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 5 Rhagfyr 1973.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr John Peyton Mr John Peyton , Yeovil 12:00, 5 Rhagfyr 1973

Of course, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park should never yield to the temptation to intervene—not with points like that, anyhow. The Green Paper, a slender, modest document—never intended to be more—was an attempt to define the position reached when the previous Government left office. If it had a certain paucity about it, that is not something I would wish to press too much now because it would be most embarrassing to the right hon. Gentleman.

The right hon. Gentleman was not to be drawn about what he did favour. He was not in favour of this particular tunnel. There is something wicked about it. However, my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dover (Mr. Peter Rees) did his best to draw the right hon. Gentleman, asking what he was intending to offer the people of Dover. At that point the right hon. Gentleman assumed an air of coyness and chastity, the like of which I have seldom seen.

I come to three points which the right hon. Gentleman asked me. I can tell him that some negotiations may take place but the powers contained in the Bill will not be substantially used until a further decision has been taken, and that further decision will be the Third Reading of the Bill. He raised the question of the British Railways Bill. It will not come this Session, it will be presented in the next Session of Parliament, and it will be a Private Bill. The third point is whether there would be substantial investment by the railways before that Bill was presented. The answer to that question is "No".

The right hon. Gentleman then very graciously said that he had no quarrel with the ingredient of private capital in the project but he had a rather predictable complaint about the private interests getting too large a reward. It was a sort of inverse picture of Oliver Twist. The right hon. Gentleman asked that someone else should have less instead of asking for a little more for himself.

I have been here for only 22 years but I believe it is not an unusual prac- tice for Governments when they go through the deplorable practice of issuing White Papers to ask the House of Commons to approve them. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think there was something strange and wicked about that. On the whole, there are many White Papers, and I say quite impartially that we should have been better off without an awful lot of them. It was necessary to quarry a very long way to find their meaning. They were over-long, and short of information. However, no one can say that of the White Paper which the House so graciously approved only a month or so ago.

The right hon. Gentleman complained—mark that word—that the House of Commons had had no opportunity to challenge the figures. Here we are today debating the matter for the fourth time, and as far as I can recollect he did not mention in his speech a single one of those figures that he wished to challenge. I find it difficult to take that seriously.

The right hon. Gentleman raised in a very elegant fashion the fact that before 1948 every Hybrid Bill had to go through certain procedures. I was not sure at the end whether he was in favour of those procedures, because he went on to say then that all sorts of people tamed up with evidence before the Select Committee. Does he favour that process? I was not sure, but in this particular instance I think it not unlikely that we shall follow the example of the Labour Government. The right hon. Gentleman said in a moment of quite unqualified boldness that he was here to explain his party's attitude; but he very wisely refrained from going into any detail.

I think that almost every right hon. and hon. Member who has spoken has acknowledged the maiden speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, North (Mr. Alexander Fletcher). I pay a similar tribute. It was an admirable speech. Every hon. Member who was present welcomed his reference to Johnnie Dalkeith, as we knew him, and to the brave way in which he combated great misfortune here. During the course of my hon. Friend's speech he led us all to believe that he would be a worthy successor. We shall all, in the time-honoured phrase, look forward to hearing from him again, and rather more so than to some hon. Member whose names and constituencies I shall not mention. He was witty, to the point, and made a short speech—a remarkable achievement. I assure him that the whole House enjoyed his speech and the way in which he made it, and would wish to join me in my congratulations.

My right hon. Friend referred movingly to the strength of the Union. He did so at a time when disruption is the dangerous mood with which we are most familiar. He was wise enough to see that by such a project Scotland can be brought closer to the centre of economic activity. I was grateful to him for his welcome of the Government's statement on rail policy. I take his warning that it would be unacceptable—and it is unlikely that I should be responsible for these details—and unwelcome, if the tunnel were to be completed by 1980, that trains should run to the tunnel from London during 1980, from Manchester in 1985 and not until 1990 from Scotland. I warmly agree with my right hon. Friend. I hope that such a thing will not happen. I am sure that it will not.

My hon. Friend then said that the project was within the boundaries of today's knowledge. That is right, and it indicates that it does not have the perils of some of the so-called high technology projects which have more dangerous ground. He closed his remarks with a moving and marvellous warning to all those who live south of Watford. I hope that everyone who is disgraced by living south of Watford will take note of what he said and change his ways.

Then we came to a remarkable part of the debate. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Tope) moved an amendment. He is to be congratulated wholeheartedly on the speed with which the Liberal benches were evacuated imediately after he had done so. He would have heard nothing good of it. He had a distinction which none of us has ever had in this House, of having every Member of his party in attendance upon him while he made his speech. Then one of my hon. Friends, whose name and constituency I would prefer to forget, actually went so far as to suggest a photograph of that crowded Liberal bench.

Well, I was told, in the course of a speech which dredged up some not un- fashionable ground for opposing this project, that the Liberal Party objected to a "rolling motorway", that it would prefer, in other words, to build a tunnel from which, or from the use of which, the bulk of traffic would be withdrawn. I would much like to assure the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Cyril Smith), who has just come in, that there was nothing personal in my last remark.

We went through these rather familiar arguments about a rail-only tunnel, and then suddenly the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam took off into the realms of what he described as imaginative thinking but what for everyone else was sheeer romance—a Channel dam which was going to cost £1,000 million to £1,500 million. I wish he would tell me where he shops. I think it would be a bargain. I do not know whether he actually added the sort of collateral expenses which would flow, because half, and probably the whole, of Holland and certainly most of East Anglia would be under water.

Then, astonishingly enough, the hon. Gentleman went on to say that he had heard that the M20 would have to be doubled. The new section of the M20 is a dual three-lane road. I do not know where he gets his information from any more than I know where he shops.

My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) put three points to me. He referred to Dolland's Moor and was anxious about some permanent development of great horror. Dolland's Moor is to be used as a siding temporarily for railway purposes for the transport of spoil.

Secondly, my hon. Friend referred to the difficulty of selling houses which have a low value now but would be likely to develop a higher value later. Before my right hon. and learned Friend has any powers in this matter he needs the Bill, but the matter is being discussed with the project managers and we are ascertaining whether there is anything helpful they can do. The problem is recognised.

My hon. Friend's third question concerned flood water. I understand that it is now being discussed with the Folkestone Borough Council.

The hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Ellis)—I apologise for not being here to hear him, but I heard most of the debate —was worried about inadequate research on regional development. I do not know, but I am sure that he probably read the White Paper very fully but some time ago. If he reads it again, he will find that there is quite a bit in it, and even a substantial annex on the subject, which I commend to his attention.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Sir D. Dodds-Parker), whose return to this matter I welcome warmly, showed the support born of a long conviction for an historic project. He revealed with a shrewd question the customary difficulty experienced by a party which habitually favours what it is doing while it is doing it, but which visits anyone else who is rash enough to tread much the same path with the vinegary disapproval to which we have all become accustomed. My hon. Friend acknowledged that the project is technically possible and economically viable, and that it was not unimportant or unwelcome.

The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) made a remarkable speech to which I think the whole House listened with enjoyment and respect—the whole House, that is, minus the Liberal Bench, to which he addressed his earlier remarks. I do not wish to add to the gloom and misery of the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam, but he would do well to read what the hon. Member for West Lothian said about his speech, and I hope he will.

The hon. Member for West Lothian also paid a generous tribute to the Duke of Buccleuch and went on to welcome both the tunnel and the rail link. His comments on the management structure and the difficulties that inevitably arise in the management of an international project are, I assure him, taken seriously. What I said in my intervention during his speech was said not in a spirit of complacency but in the knowledge that there is a substantial problem which, being recognised, can be dealt with.

I dealt with the question that the capital cost of a rail-only tunnel would be 30 per cent. less but that, deprived of the large bulk of its traffic, the tunnel would not make a profit for a long time. Although the operating cost of a railway-only tunnel would be cut by 85 per cent., that would be only a small section of the total annual cost and would take no account of the loss of revenue, which would be far greater.

The hon. Member for West Lothian considered that Clause 8 offered too much of a carte blanche to my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, but my right hon. and learned Friend has very limited obligations or rights under the Bill. Clause 8 gives him financial powers only to spend money in pursuance of the minor functions, rights and powers that he has.