Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 4 Rhagfyr 1973.
That is one way but I do not for a moment accept that it is the only way. A Select Committee would be taking a steam hammer to crack a nut. We must be able to get at the facts more easily and more speedily than that.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Fylde has given a detailed account of what he says the facts are. If he is wrong the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) must say what information was available to the commissioners when they seized the funds. All the information available at present is that they had no reason to know it was a political fund. If those are the facts, the criticism is wholly unjustified. There is a tendency now to say : "My mind is made up, do not confuse me with the facts." We must not fall into that error. We must look at the facts and make up our minds upon them.
The hon. Member for Bassetlaw says that everyone thinks he is an expert in industrial relations. I do not and I do not know any lawyers who do, except those who have been intimately concerned in industrial relations. I do, however, know quite a lot about the law relating to industrial relations, and enough about it to know that it is quite a different subject from industrial relations themselves. Every lawyer I know who has interested himself in the subject—and I know many who have—has drawn that distinction very clearly.
May I now say briefly what I consider to be the place of the law in industrial relations? Of course, the law cannot produce good industrial relations. Good industrial relations depend upon man's behaviour to man—the behaviour of management to labour, labour to management and both of them to the public at large. Of course, the law cannot produce good industrial relations, but it is equally silly to say that there is no place for the law in industrial relations. If there were no special industrial relations law the first people to howl would be the trade unions, and I should understand that, because most of the law relating to trade unions has been to give them the protection which enabled them to go about their lawful and accepted business of combining to defend the interests of their members. That is perfectly proper. So, to say that the law has no place in industrial relations is as silly as saying that it can produce good industrial relations.
What then is the place of the law? I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Luton (Mr. Simeons) said. In principle, it has the same place in industrial relations as it has in any other part of our lives. If we are not to revert to the jungle we must have laws which say what can and cannot be done and we must have courts which are there as an instrument of last resort for people who cannot decide their legal rights between themselves. These two things are quite indispensable if we are to have a civilised society and not a jungle existence.
These are the rôles which the law plays in society. The law is the servant of all and the master of none. The lawyers do not make the law, the laws do not make the law, and the courts do not make the law. We have a common law, and the rest of the law is made by Parliament. The courts are there to administer the laws. But if the laws and courts are to be good servants they must be obeyed by all. That is what is meant by the rule of law. That is a phrase we bandy about in this House, and we understand what it means. Some people outside may wonder what on earth we are talking about. They may sometimes think we are talking about lawyers ruling the world, but they could not be more wrong. The rule of law is a short phrase we use to describe "obedience to the law by everybody"— lawyers, trade unionists, parliamentarians, and so on.
Once we get down to the elementary propositions everyone would surely then agree that industrial relations is the last field in which we can afford to say we do not need any of these guidelines and assistance, we do not need these servants but we will struggle through on our own. That is so foolish. It is equally foolish to talk about throwing out the Act lock, stock and barrel. I cannot believe that is what anybody wants. The right hon. Member for Jarrow (Mr. Fernyhough) shakes his head. I must keep within my time, which means I cannot expand the points I am making. But does he really want to throw out all the provisions of this Act and go back to the jungle of laws relating to the protection of trade unionists in their lawful activities which we had before this Act? Does he want to go back to Section 3 of the 1906 Act? He must want to go back to some kind of protection. If he were saying that this law should be scrapped and that trade unionists will stand in the civil courts alongside every other man and answer for their interference with contractual relations just as any other man, that I could understand. Many people would go along with it, and say, "You can have that tomorow." But it is not what the hon. Gentleman wants—and I can see that it is reasonable for him not to be prepared to go entirely back like that.
At the moment many of us think that the protection given to trade unionists in their lawful activities is considerably wider under this Act than the protection given by Section 3 of the 1906 Act, particularly in the sensitive area of sympathetic action. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite really want to lose that and go back to the less effective jungle of Section 3 of the 1906 Act? I do not think that that can be what they want.
Do they want to get rid of the provisions for unfair dismissal which have proved useful to so many people? Do they want to get rid of the new provisions as to "recognition"? Whether the unions register or not, steps are open to them to obtain recognition which they never had before. If they would just go that bit further and register they could have decisions of the CIR enforced. That is why the AUEW is losing out all round on the Con-Mech dispute. If it had registered—what is the price of registration?—much friction could have been avoided. And it costs nothing to register. But it seems that loss of face is what people are worrying about. Surely that is a minor consideration.
The price of registration is having one's rule book looked at. If it is a good rule book, why worry about someone looking at it? If the AUEW registered it would cost it nothing but give it much in the Con-Mech situation. Not only could it take advantage of that part of the Act of which members of Con-Mech have taken advantage, but, having obtained the decision it did, the union could have taken further steps to take advantage of that decision
Does the hon. Member for Salford, West—and his hon. Friends—want to lose on that? I cannot believe that they do because these are benefits available to the trade union movement. What then, is it that they want? Is it, as some union leaders have indicated, that in some areas, especially, perhaps the area of unfair industrial practices which has caused most of the trouble, they would prefer disputes to be dealt with in the High Court and, if summoned to appear in the High Court, they would do so and plead their case? If that is what they want—some have indicated that it is what they want—is not this the time to say so? If they do, they might find that they have more support for their view than they thought. For instance, the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) has indicated a view about that.
I end with a plea. If I am right in judging that a little of the bitterness has gone out of the situation and that we are now, albeit haltingly, groping for common ground, I hope that we may put bitterness to one side and make every attempt to seek common ground. It does not seem much to ask. If we disagree, let us disagree on questions of fact and principle, not through bitterness.
Is not this the time when, on all sides of the House, we should be putting into the pool our ideas about how the Act can be changed, abandoning this foolish talk of scrapping the whole lot, which does not make any sense. We should seek, with all the force and good will that we can summon, to find larger and larger areas of common ground. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State today repeated that he is willing to consider all suggestions for amending the Act. I beg all hon. Members opposite to take up that offer.