I should enjoy a trip to Sheffield and I am sure that it would be interesting, but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about what Mr. Scanlon said on television, and I am claiming that in relation to this Act the union is not a law-abiding union. To the rest of the community the members of the AUEW do not seem to be law abiding. They seem to be a group which is presuming a privileged position. If any other person or organisation is alleged to have broken the law they expect to attend the court to put their case. If they fail to do so they expect to take the consequences without looking round for sympathy. These trade unionists decline to attend and then they blame the judge for the consequences.

The motion says that the Act has resulted in the sequestration of particular union funds, but nothing of the sort has occurred. It is the failure of union officials to act like normal law-abiding citizens and attend the court that has resulted in this entirely predictable consequence. The union knows perfectly well that had it stated its case the fine would almost certainly have been less, and quite certainly it could have been paid from whatever fund the union wanted it to be paid. Yet the public are asked to be sorry for the way in which this powerful union has been treated. I have yet to find anyone who is.

Clearly, the Shadow Cabinet as a whole does not want to be hooked on the proposition that the AUEW should be supported in defying the law so it serves up a castrated edition of Motion No. 49. The motion on the Order Paper has been moved by the right hon. Member for East Ham, North (Mr. Prentice) who is known to have the normal respect for the law, but he was patently embarrassed by knowing that there were 130 people behind him who were at odds with his view, and even more embarrassed when he knew that the Opposition are to be represented in the wind-up by the chief instigator of Motion No. 49, the hon. Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme), who directly attacks the judge and demands his dismissal.

That is dangerous ground—and the Shadow Cabinet knows it—for a party that presumes to be the alternative Government. The right hon. Member for East Ham, North has done his best—rather an embarrassed best—to steer his party through and out of this minefield. I shall be surprised if the hon. Member for Salford, West does not push him back into it before 10 o'clock tonight.

Fortunately, the motion does not limit our debate to the grievances of the union, so I will turn to the passage dealing with industrial relations and the Industrial Relations Act. An outsider hearing some of our debates in the Chamber could be forgiven for concluding that the two major parties have not an idea or concern in common. But both parties have some common experience. Both parties claim to believe in free collective bargaining. Both parties found that free collective bargaining did not meet the economic situation at some period in their administration. Both favoured a voluntary incomes policy and both were driven to a statutory incomes policy.

In industrial relations legislation both parties also have some experience in common. Time was when both parties asserted that major industrial relations legislation was unnecessary. Nevertheless, within the last five years, both parties had legislated or attempted to legislate. It therefore seems certain that, whoever wins the next election, legislation will persist either in the form of amendments to the Industrial Relations Act or new labour legislation under another name, and the right hon. Member for East Ham, North has confirmed that this will be so.

After the election, legislation can take place in a different, more constructive, less emotional, less political atmosphere than that which we endured during the passing of the present Act, especially if constructive non-political thought can be given to it now. I acknowledge that no trade union leader could at this moment come and discuss amendments to the Industrial Relations Act with the Secretary of State. With an election in sight, this would be construed as an assumption of Conservative victory. Anyway, as the motion confirms once again, the trade unions have such a blanket curse on the whole Act that they dare not do anything to suggest toleration of even those parts of the Act which benefit their members, such as the provisions for unfair dismissal. I do not, therefore, suggest that direct talks between the Secretary of State and trade union leaders now are possible or could be profitable.