Wales

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 4 Tachwedd 1965.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr David Gibson-Watt Mr David Gibson-Watt , Hereford 12:00, 4 Tachwedd 1965

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for saying that, but it was not quite the point that I was making. We could have had the Welsh debate at the end of July. We are discussing a Report which is already many months out of date, and the fact that we are doing it so late makes it three months more out of date. But I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for saying that it is a matter which we should look at.

My right hon. Friend for Monmouth then referred to the National Plan and, like myself, he was disappointed at the brevity and paucity of the remarks about Wales. I cannot help thinking that the Secretary of State must have had a hand in it, and I can say to him that we on this side are disappointed with what has been put in the National Plan about the future of the Principality. Speaking on television, Professor Niven said that the National Plan poses the questions, but gives none of the answers. Perhaps the most important answer which the National Plan has failed to give is with regard to the future of the steel and coal-mining industries in Wales, and I hope that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite will bear with me if I say a little about this. I know that many of them have a life-long interest in and knowledge of this matter.

The hon. Member for Pontypool criticised my right hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth for saying that the Government should have some form of steel plan for South Wales. I do not think that that is a justifiable complaint. Those who are in a contracting industry in any part of the country today have a right to know what is going to happen to them. I realise that both with coal and with steel there must be a large confidence factor within them, and I therefore shall not pursue this matter too far, but I think it is right of my right hon. Friend to ask the Government what their plans are, and to ask them to be more specific. There is far too little in the National Plan to show what they intend to do.

With regard to redundancies, we are told that the coal-mining industry as a whole is going to lose 175,000 men over the country as a whole, and that agriculture is going to lose 142,000 men. We are pleased to see the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in the Chamber. We are grateful to him for coming here and listening to the debate. There is nothing in the Welsh paragraphs of the Plan to tell us how many men in Wales are expected to be made redundant in agriculture, and how many in coal mining. Possibly it is an impossible answer to give accurately, but we would like to have some idea of what the trend is.

In the agricultural industry we have seen a continual decrease in the number of men working on the land, but I think the time is coming very soon—we may well be there now—when this decline is going to slow down. In spite of the arrangements which have been made by the Government to buy out, or shall I say help out, small farmers in Wales and other parts of the country, I still believe that there will be a slowing down of the speed at which men are leaving the land.

With regard to the mining industry, I believe that we should be told a little more so that those within the industry have a chance of understanding what the Government are up to. As right hon. and hon. Members have said, redundancy in large and basic industries of this sort is bound to mean redevelopment. Is that redevelopment going to take place on the coastal plain or at the mouth of the valleys, or up the valleys where there are centres of population? Everyone will have a different view about this, but here again I believe the Government should tell us what their views are in this respect. We ought to be told not only how many men it is thought will be in the industry in five years' time, but also what tonnage is expected, and here again the confidence factor comes in.

The National Plan was debated yesterday. It was debated and defended in one of the longest speeches that we have heard from the Chief Secretary for a long time. He spent 67 minutes trying to tell the House why it is, and how it is, that his Department has done so little so far. Hon. Members say "Tut", but it is clear that the National Plan has not been received as well in the country as some hon. Members believe. It may be a survey, but it is certainly not a plan. Within the National Plan we are told a good deal about what has been done on the roads. Command Paper 2602 also contains many references to what has been done.

There is one matter to which I wish to refer especially on the question of roads. We know that there have been certain cuts in road expenditure. We know, too, that the Welsh Office is responsible for road policy in Wales. I ask the Minister of State straight away whether Circulars Nos. 21/65 and 25/65, sent out to local authorities by the Welsh Office, and which indicate that expenditure on certain classes of road schemes should be deferred, can be varied. I apologise for not having given the hon. Gentleman notice of this, and if he is unable to give me an answer tonight I shall understand.

In effect, these circulars tell Welsh local authorities that certain schemes costing £25,000 and over must be deferred for six months. This is a form of cut in road expenditure. What is more important is the question of bridge-building. If a local authority is building a bridge over a river it normally starts work in March in order to get the benefit of the summer months. If such work is delayed for six months it will start work at the beginning of the winter. It is clear, therefore, that there will be a delay not of six months, but of 12 months. I therefore ask the Minister whether he can vary these provisions for those local authorities who are building river bridges.

During the debate my right hon. Friend referred to the question of Mid Wales. The Secretary of State said that a firm of consultants was looking into the question of the Mid-Wales towns. I will not refer to the subject in detail tonight; the Secretary of State knows my views on the matter, and I know his. But with regard to what the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) said, I would only reply that in my opinion he is wrong. I will explain why. He denied that he had ever thought that Aberystwyth's population should be brought up to 250,000.