Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 4 Tachwedd 1965.
Certainly. The hon. Gentleman is correct about that. However, the majority are from Wales and we must remember that many Welsh students go to English and other universities and many of them to my knowledge would like to come back to Wales for technological employment. That is the other side of the coin.
As has been pointed out, Wales is a highly industrialised nation. It was one of the most highly industrialised. Remembering the present and future importance of science-based industries, these figures are highly significant for the future of Wales and should put everybody, whatever his political convictions, on guard about the possible future decline of Welsh industry.
We speak glibly of expanding higher education in science in Wales, but what prospect is there, when we have such a gloomy report about science teaching in primary and secondary schools, and of the number of jobs available for technologists in Wales? Thus the brain drain from Wales continues.
I shall not mention the other matters emphasised in the Report and which might be more suitably considered elsewhere, save to make a passing reference to the great importance attached to what the Report calls the fusion of cultures; the importance of marrying them at some stage. It is very important to link up science training with education in the Arts so as to ensure that they are not divorced. In certain areas Welsh should be used more extensively for scientific training so as to ensure that the ability of our children is fully developed in their own language.
From some of the facts which I have described, there is obviously a great need in Wales for a more modern and dynamic approach. We greatly lack design, development and research centres in Wales. I recently read a report by Professor Fogarty of Cardiff University who in detail argued the case for creating a graduate school of business in Wales, for business training. Probably the most advanced commercial and industrial nation in the world is the United States. It is now rivalled in Europe, certainly by Western Germany. It is significant that these countries consider that graduate training for business is vital; yet there is no suggestion, other than in the report by Professor Fogarty, of such a graduate school of business for Wales. We ought to be pressing for this now.
In exactly the same way, graduates in science should have training in industrial management. Too often in Wales it is accepted that management is simply to be acquired by experience. No one is belittling the importance of experience, but I know from my own knowledge of friends and relatives from another continent how important training is considered. A Canadian relative of my wife had a scientific training and was then given a business training by one of the world's largest aluminium corporations, and even in his 'twenties was managing a very large concern. Such modern companies are always looking for young science and arts graduates to train in management. Where could they train them in Wales? I think that we have heard far too little of this kind of project in Wales.
May I also ask the Secretary of State, arising out of what I have said so far, whether it is possible for him to have discussions with the B.B.C. and the I.T.A. in Wales so as to ensure that television is used much more for educational training than at present? From what one has seen on the national television programmes, at Sunday lunch-time for example, science can be taught very well through the medium of television. In view of the great shortage of suitable science teachers in Wales, and the dearth of recruits of suitable standards, revealed by the Report, surely television should be used much more extensively for the schools in Wales than at present.
Another point that seems to be important is that we lack any major Government establishment of scientific research in Wales. The Report points out that in Scotland there are two such major establishments and several minor ones. Perhaps the Minister can tell us in his reply how much Government-sponsored research there is going on in Wales at the present time. I venture to think very little indeed. We lose considerably from this, and this leads me to a matter which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Monmouth raised when he chided me, and my party, over our plan for developing Aberystwith. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me when I suggest that, though he has a great deal to read in order to catch up on his knowledge of Wales, he ought, before criticising our policy, at least to read it. He will find in the policy, which I have here that the suggestion is that Aberystwith should be trebled in size and brought up to 60,000 people by the end of the century. This is what is important.
In Wales we tend to think of industry in a rather old-fashioned way, because our industry has developed from basic Indus- tries, like coal, steel, slate and so on. When we look at the countries growing rapidly today we see that more and more of their industries are science-based. I read recently an interesting study of the growth of California. I am not contrasting the climate of California with the climate of the west coast of Wales—