Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 4 Tachwedd 1965.
I am sure that the hon. Member for Aberdare (Mr. Probert) will forgive me if I do not follow him in his thoughtful and informed speech about a matter which is very close to his heart.
The hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Box) will, I am sure, understand when I say that I was astonished to hear from him at the end of his speech the suggestion that the Labour Party regarded Wales as a second-rate nation, when only a moment before he had suggested that the responsibilities for Wales of the Secretary of State were unimportant and that the right hon. Gentleman should have added to them responsibilities for important Departments outside. I should have thought that if the hon. Gentleman cared for Wales and thought about it, what he would want to do would be to give the Secretary of State for Wales more responsibility within Wales.
My disappointment about the Secretary of State and his powers arises from the fact up to the present we have by no means realised the hope that he expressed in the Welsh debate last year, when he said:
We therefore propose that the Labour Government which will be returned in the autumn shall appoint a Secretary of State for Wales, with a seat in the Cabinet, with executive authority over a number of Departments and overall responsibility for Government actions, policies and plans in Wales."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 25th June. 1964; Vol. 697, c. 660.]
Certainly to date, we have not seen that executive authority over a number of Departments. What we should be pressing for is that the Secretary of State should have increased authority over Welsh affairs.
I was disturbed during the Recess to read that the Leader of the Opposition had spoken, in Scotland, of the need to contract the size of the Cabinet but had given an undertaking that the Secretary of State for Scotland would be included in the Cabinet. He would give no such undertaking about the Secretary of State for Wales. Having heard the right hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. Thorneycroft), I begin to understand why. Nevertheless, we hope, for the sake of Wales, that if ever a Conservative Government is returned, the Secretary of State for Wales will remain in the Cabinet.
I listened, as always, with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for Monmouth. He spoke about Welsh affairs with that great authority which some men bring whose acquaintance with the problems and facts is very recent. He visited my constituency for a few hours, and one of the suggestions that he made was that there should be rural trading estates. It so happens that a few years ago the Liberal Party put forward that very suggestion in the House and in the country, and it was described by the Conservative spokesmen of the day as a completely impractical plan. We are very glad to see the right hon. Member for Monmouth, in a maiden speech, I think, in a Welsh debate, bringing a fresh mind to these problems and suggesting as a possible solution something which his colleagues so described years ago. I think that the right hon. Gentleman's approach is the better one. The right hon. Gentleman said that the emblem of his county of Monmouth was a rose intertwined with a leek. I am very glad to see from the right hon. Gentleman some sign of loyalty to the leek. Late conversions are often the better ones, and we hope that this conversion lasts a long time.
I have been astonished to hear so much agreement between the two Front Benches. I listened attentively to the speech by the Secretary' of State. His speeches and reminiscences are always extremely interesting because he is almost a social history book in himself. Indeed, I find his speeches delightful. He was congratulating himself and the Government on their achievements in Wales. On the other hand, the right hon. Member for Monmouth claimed that the congratulations properly and legally belonged to the Secretary of State's predecessor, the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), who used to be the Minister for Welsh Affairs.
But have we so much to congratulate ourselves about in Wales? This is the crux of the matter. Are we really making such good progress? No doubt, the Minister of State, when he replies, will be loyal to the Government, but I am sure that in his heart of hearts he knows that there are many things in Wales about which we ought not to be sanguine and satisfied.