Wales

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 4 Tachwedd 1965.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Peter Thorneycroft Mr Peter Thorneycroft , Sir Fynwy 12:00, 4 Tachwedd 1965

The hon. Gentleman might wait until I see the Bill. I am asking for something which is specifically within the Government's own control. They are, after all, masters of this particular situation. It is the Minister of Power himself who is in control of the electricity industry in this matter. I have not the slightest doubt that it is the Secretary for State for Wales who is consulted directly as to what the social priorities are. I think that I am entitled to an answer to the question, "Have we got the priorities right?" If it be the intention, as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontypool (Mr. Abse) says, to present a Bill to the House of Commons asking for these powers, how on earth are they allowing these particular proposals to go forward, for which they require no Bill at all? What hypocrisy. I shall, however, judge the Bill when it comes before the House.

I now turn to the major sector of the power industry. I make no apology for spending a little time with power, because it is of the very essence of the Welsh economy. The right hon. Gentleman himself said that great importance was to be attached to the future of the coal industry. What has happened in the case of coal? The Government have produced their National Plan, in which they envisage a reduction in the output of coal from around 200 million tons to something like 170 million or 180 million tons, phasing out between now and 1970 something like 175,000 men. This is at a time, and against a background, of rising coal output in South Wales. In this document which we are considering it is said that the output in South Wales actually rose, whereas the output in the rest of the country declined. I am not trying to minimise the problems of the coal industry in South Wales and the problems of uneconomic pits. I think that these are difficult decisions to take, but these are the proposals which the Government have made in the Plan. It is a running-down of the industry, and a running-down in a way which, whatever one does, is bound to affect very wide areas of population, not only men but their families.

Lord Robens does not seem to agree with this particular project. I hope that I do not overstate the situation when I say that Lord Robens, who has done a magnificent job—there can be no dispute about that on either side of the House—says that it is no way to talk of a great industry. If we want an industry to go ahead, we should not talk about running it down so that people are looking over their shoulder and wondering what will happen tomorrow. Let us square our shoulders and see how we can mine the coal and find the markets. Lord Robens has not been backward in seeking to do both, and, on the whole, he has been remarkably successful. We see from the Western Mail this morning that another pit at Blaenau is to be kept open because the management and men have got together and made a success of it. This is a better approach.

What I want to ask the Secretary of State is this: what effect will the National Plan, with its proposal to run down the mining industry, have on South Wales? I may not be alone in asking that question. Obviously the figures and tables in the Plan cannot have been just dreamt up by the First Secretary's office. They must have been obtained from somewhere. Some consultations must have taken place. I was interested that the right hon. Gentleman had talks with the unions in North and South Wales. It is admirable that he should have done so. From his past experience and record, he is well qualified to do so. But surely conversations must have taken place before the National Plan was produced, before these rather sensational figures were printed.

What is the planned effect on Wales? Obviously, nobody knows what the full effect will be. But what contribution in running down pits and in dismissing men were the Welsh mines intended to make to the figures in the National Plan? I am absolutely certain that those facts must have been known. However unpleasant, harsh or horrible they may be, for goodness' sake state them in the House and in this debate so that we know where we stand and what the Government have in mind for one of the great industries of Wales.

I turn to the question of steel, for which Wales must always carry a very heavy responsibility. We produce most of the tinplate and sheet steel and one-third of the crude steel for the whole of the United Kingdom, and magnificently we have done it. What are the plans for steel? We read in the National Plan remarkable statements about how the whole industry is to be refurbished—not nationalised, which is a naughty word, but rationalised, as it has now become. Is legislation contemplated? Is it in the Government's mind to carry out a major surgical operation on the steel industry? If not, what remarkable hypocrisy it is to talk about it in the National Plan. Who is it supposed to satisfy?

If the Government believe that we have to refurbish the whole of the steel industry in South Wales—and most of it is in South Wales—they should have the guts to produce a Bill in the House to do that and to let right hon. and hon. Members express their opinion and judgment on whether it is right. But if they know that it is nonsense, they should keep it out of the National Plan, not because it is just silly, but because it has an effect on the confidence of the men engaged in the very tough task of producing steel for export and the home market.

I am bound to say this to the Secretary of State: the thing which is wanted more than anything else in South Wales, and, for that matter, in North Wales, is confidence. There will not be confidence in the coal mines if the Government leave people utterly uncertain about the future of their industry. The South Wales miner—and I can speak to no one better than the right hon. Gentleman about this—is the sort of man who prefers to be told the truth. A great deal of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was directed to that end. Let the Minister of State tell us what the position is.

The managers of the steelworks are quite tough individuals. They want to know what they have to apply their minds to. If they have to spend the next year battling with some major reorganisation, then they should be told. But if their job is to produce steel, let them get on with the job. This is the way to achieve confidence. We shall not get the best out of South Wales if the coal miners and steel managers are utterly uncertain about what the Government intend to do, and it cannot be regarded in any sense as sensible planning to leave them in that situation.

These arguments apply to South Wales and North Wales alike, but there is a problem in Mid Wales. The Secretary of State said nothing about a new town, which I thought was significant. I have recently been in Mid Wales—