Clause 33. — (Special Provisions with Respect to Ferries.)

Orders of the Day — Harbours Bill – in the House of Commons am 12:00 am ar 16 Mawrth 1964.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Vice-Admiral John Hughes-Hallett Vice-Admiral John Hughes-Hallett , Croydon North East 12:00, 16 Mawrth 1964

I beg to move, in page 30, line 40 at the end to insert: (2) The following statutory provisions shall also be excepted from the operation of section 22(1) of this Act, namely,—

  1. (a) a provision contained in an order under Part IV of the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1923 by virtue of section 38(1)(d) of that Act with respect to contributions to be assessed under the order on several fisheries and recoverable by river boards or river authorities;
  2. (b) a provision contained in a document issued under section 61(a) or (h) of that Act embodying the approval of the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries or the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food of the duty on a licence granted under that section to fish:
  3. (c) a provision contained—
    1. (i) in a scheme made under section 58 or 61 of the Water Resources Act 1963 providing for the levying of charges in respect of licences under that Act to abstract water,
    2. (ii) in an agreement under section 60(1) of that Act between a river authority and any person providing for charges under such a scheme as aforesaid to be levied on him at reduced rates;
    3. (iii) in an instrument issued under section 60(5) of that Act embodying directions of the Minister of Housing and Local Government to a river authority requiring them to make such an agreement as aforesaid.
    4. (iv) in an agreement under section 62(1) of that Act between a river authority and the holder of a licence under that Act to abstract water with respect to charges payable in respect of water authorised by the licence to he abstracted;
    5. (v) in an instrument issued under the said section 62(1) embodying a determination by the Minister of Housing and Local Government of rates at which charges in respect of licences under that Act to abstract water shall be payable before such a scheme as aforesaid comes into operation; or
    6. (vi) in an agreement made under section 63 of that Act with respect to charges in respect of licences under that Act to abstract water for spray irrigation;
  4. (d) a provision contained, by virtue of section 79(6) of the said Act of 1963, in byelaws made tinder section 79(3) thereof authorising a river authority to make reasonable charges in respect of the registration of boats in pursuance of the byelaws;
  5. (e) section 80(3) of the said Act of 1963, in so far as it authorises river authorities to make reasonable charges for facilities made available under section 80(2) of that Act for use by persons resorting to an inland water for the purposes of a form of recreation for the time being regulated by byelaws made by that authority;
and accordingly the references to charges in subsections (2) and (4) of the said section 22 shall be construed as not including references to any such contributions as are mentioned in paragraph (a) above, any such duty as is mentioned in paragraph (b) above or any such charges as are mentioned in paragraphs (c), (d) or (e) above. This is not a drafting Amendment. The Amendment secures that certain statutory provisions relating to the charging powers of river boards and river authorities shall continue in force despite the operation of Clause 22(1), under which any statutory provisions which limit the discretion of the harbour authority as to its charges cease to have effect.

The Amendment is needed because we find that very few river boards or river authorities have genuine harbour functions in addition to river works powers and river works duties, as those expressions are defined in Clause 53. These bodies are not, therefore, affected by the exclusion in Clause 54 which provides that river boards and river authorities are not to he taken to be harbour authorities by reason only of the fact that river works powers are vested in them.

Coming down to details, the statutory charging provisions which will continue in force under paragraphs (a) and (b) of the new subsection arise from the functions of the river boards and river authorities under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act, 1923. The charging provisions which are mentioned in the remaining paragraphs (c), (d) and (e) relate to the functions of the river authorities under the Water Resources Act, 1963.

As the House will appreciate, the Clause will now no longer be an exemptions Clause for ferries. It has been widened, and no doubt an appropriate change in its Title will be made at a later stage.

Amendment agreed to.

Photo of Mr James Stodart Mr James Stodart , Edinburgh West

I beg to move, in page 40, line 30, at the end to insert: (3) In this section "harbour" does not include a marine work.

It might be convenient, Mr. Speaker, to take with this Amendment the Amendments:

In page 50, line 46, leave out from "1964" to end of line 3 on page 51.

In page 54, line 24, leave out "and a wharf" and insert: a wharf, and in Scotland a ferry or boatslip being a marine work".

In page 55, line 35, after "harbour", insert "ferry or boatslip".

In page 55, line 36, after "harbour", insert "ferry or boatslip".

Photo of Mr James Stodart Mr James Stodart , Edinburgh West

These five Amendments are closely linked in their effect. I want to express the considerable appreciation of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland of the kindness and consideration which was shown by my hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary and all members of the Standing Committee by allowing themselves not to be daunted by the number of Amendments which were tabled after the proceedings in Committee started on the subject of things with which I am sure the Committee must have become very familiar—that is, marine works.

These five Amendments are necessary to ensure that certain classes of marine works, namely, ferries and boatslips, should be treated in the Bill in the same manner as other marine works. I should explain to the House that, as those who took part in our discussions in Committee are only too well aware, these Amendments were tabled in Committee but it was decided not to move them then. My hon. and gallant Friend the Parliamentary Secretary said at that time, with I think the characteristic honesty which impressed both sides of the Committee that he had told the Committee that marine works consisted of harbours. He told hon. Gentlemen that when he was persuading them to deal with the Amendments on marine works. When he discovered that marine works also included ferries and boatslips, he felt that he was inviting the Committee at that stage to take on something more than that to which it had previously agreed.

At present the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act, 1937, makes provision for harbours used mainly for fishing and transport and defines a "marine work" as a "harbour, pier, ferry or boatslip". Certain provisions of the Bill—those dealing with the making of orders revising harbour authorities' powers and those dealing with charges—have been applied to marine works by Amendments made in Committee, and the present provisions for dealing with charges in the 1937 Act have also been repealed. Because of the way the Bill is drafted the provisions applying to marine works do not at present apply to ferries and boat-slips and this leaves these classes of marine works out in the cold, so to speak. Unless these Amendments are made there will be no statutory provision at all for dealing with charges at ferries and boat-slips.

It seems clear, however, that while these undertakings have for the past 27 years been treated like other marine works—and to give two examples, these ferries and boatslips include many feries which, I suspect, hon. Members may have used while in Scotland; names like Kessock and Kylesku and the ferry which runs from Lismore to Port Appin—we see no reason for continuing in respect of them the very complicated procedures of the old legislation. I hope that the House will agree that they should be brought into the provisions of this Bill.

The Amendments are essentially drafting Amendments to ensure that the definition of "harbour" and "marine work" includes ferry and boatslip where that is appropriate. The first Amendment provides that Clause 33 should not apply to marine works. I rather blush, after the number of occasions on which hon. Members have been invited to include marine works, that I should, on my first Intervention, have to ask them not to include it in the Clause. The Clause takes out of the charges provisions the ferry undertakings of all harbour authorities. As I have said, it is desired to keep marine work ferries within the charges provisions.

The second Amendment is purely drafting, amending the definition of "marine work" for the purposes of the 1937 Act. It deletes the reference to "ferry" and "boatslip" in that definition, which will now read that a marine work under the 1937 Act is the same as marine work under the 1964 Measure. The third Amendment includes ferries and boatslips, which are marine works, within the definition of "harbour" while the fourth Amendment includes ferries and boat slips within the definition of "marine work". The fifth Amendment is designed to make it clear that there is no disturbance of the present arrangement by which marine works do not include any ferry or boatslip owned by a railways or docks board.

I do not want to labour the point and I think that I can summarise the matter by saying that, as on so many occasions, Scotland is seeking to cling tenaciously to what she now has and I trust that we shall be allowed to do so by maintaining the position of ferries and boat-slips as marine works, which we have enjoyed for the last 27 years.

Photo of Mr James Hoy Mr James Hoy , Edinburgh Leith

It would be unfair to allow this auspicious occasion to pass without making a few comments in reply to the Under-Secretary's remarks, particularly since he was making his first speech on the Bill. I agree that it is a little difficult, the Parliamentary Secretary having persuaded us that it was essential to put marine works in, that the Under-Secretary should now be asking us to take them out. We are back to Clause 25 again. However, I understand the reason for doing this.

The purpose of the Amendments is to make it clear that the smaller authorities in Scotland can get what they want without having to go through the old procedure. It does not in any way remove the power of the Scottish Office or the Minister of Transport to have control in this matter, and we are grateful for that.

I am sorry that the Under-Secretary has not been able to go all the way with me, because all this trouble could have been avoided very simply. Many of these ferries are essential forms of transport, and if he had treated them as public highways and provided them free of charge, as they should be, the Amendments might not have been required at all.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause

A parliamentary bill is divided into sections called clauses.

Printed in the margin next to each clause is a brief explanatory `side-note' giving details of what the effect of the clause will be.

During the committee stage of a bill, MPs examine these clauses in detail and may introduce new clauses of their own or table amendments to the existing clauses.

When a bill becomes an Act of Parliament, clauses become known as sections.

Minister

Ministers make up the Government and almost all are members of the House of Lords or the House of Commons. There are three main types of Minister. Departmental Ministers are in charge of Government Departments. The Government is divided into different Departments which have responsibilities for different areas. For example the Treasury is in charge of Government spending. Departmental Ministers in the Cabinet are generally called 'Secretary of State' but some have special titles such as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Ministers of State and Junior Ministers assist the ministers in charge of the department. They normally have responsibility for a particular area within the department and are sometimes given a title that reflects this - for example Minister of Transport.

Amendment

As a bill passes through Parliament, MPs and peers may suggest amendments - or changes - which they believe will improve the quality of the legislation.

Many hundreds of amendments are proposed by members to major bills as they pass through committee stage, report stage and third reading in both Houses of Parliament.

In the end only a handful of amendments will be incorporated into any bill.

The Speaker - or the chairman in the case of standing committees - has the power to select which amendments should be debated.

Speaker

The Speaker is an MP who has been elected to act as Chairman during debates in the House of Commons. He or she is responsible for ensuring that the rules laid down by the House for the carrying out of its business are observed. It is the Speaker who calls MPs to speak, and maintains order in the House. He or she acts as the House's representative in its relations with outside bodies and the other elements of Parliament such as the Lords and the Monarch. The Speaker is also responsible for protecting the interests of minorities in the House. He or she must ensure that the holders of an opinion, however unpopular, are allowed to put across their view without undue obstruction. It is also the Speaker who reprimands, on behalf of the House, an MP brought to the Bar of the House. In the case of disobedience the Speaker can 'name' an MP which results in their suspension from the House for a period. The Speaker must be impartial in all matters. He or she is elected by MPs in the House of Commons but then ceases to be involved in party politics. All sides in the House rely on the Speaker's disinterest. Even after retirement a former Speaker will not take part in political issues. Taking on the office means losing close contact with old colleagues and keeping apart from all groups and interests, even avoiding using the House of Commons dining rooms or bars. The Speaker continues as a Member of Parliament dealing with constituent's letters and problems. By tradition other candidates from the major parties do not contest the Speaker's seat at a General Election. The Speakership dates back to 1377 when Sir Thomas Hungerford was appointed to the role. The title Speaker comes from the fact that the Speaker was the official spokesman of the House of Commons to the Monarch. In the early years of the office, several Speakers suffered violent deaths when they presented unwelcome news to the King. Further information can be obtained from factsheet M2 on the UK Parliament website.

Secretary of State

Secretary of State was originally the title given to the two officials who conducted the Royal Correspondence under Elizabeth I. Now it is the title held by some of the more important Government Ministers, for example the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

Standing Committee

In a normal session there are up to ten standing committees on bills. Each has a chair and from 16 to 50 members. Standing committee members on bills are appointed afresh for each new bill by the Committee of Selection which is required to take account of the composition of the House of Commons (ie. party proportions) as well as the qualification of members to be nominated. The committees are chaired by a member of the Chairmen's Panel (whose members are appointed by the Speaker). In standing committees the Chairman has much the same function as the Speaker in the House of Commons. Like the Speaker, a chairman votes only in the event of a tie, and then usually in accordance with precedent. The committees consider each bill clause by clause and may make amendments. There are no standing committees in the House of Lords.

More at: http://www.parliament.uk/works/newproc.cfm#stand

intervention

An intervention is when the MP making a speech is interrupted by another MP and asked to 'give way' to allow the other MP to intervene on the speech to ask a question or comment on what has just been said.