I have pleasure in giving general support to the two schemes now before us, but I wish to say a few words about the present position. Although the Minister was correct when he said that all we had to decide to-day was whether these schemes were in a fit state to submit to the industry, actually this is our last word on the subject. If they are agreed to by the industry, they go forward and do not come back here at all. Therefore, it is right that we should now say what we have to say about them. Although those with whom I work thought it necessary to take the line we took with regard to the Agricultural Marketing Bill recently before the House, my right hon. Friend the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel), and I in a lesser degree, made it clear that we thought that there was a very good case for proceeding with the better organisation of the pig and the bacon industry, and we mentioned two outstanding points. Hitherto, very much to the discredit of many of us connected with the industry of agriculture, we have signally failed to produce a really standardised British bacon of high quality. We get it sometimes, but we can never be sure of getting it steadily as is the case with other countries.

The main point with regard to pigs which differentiates them from any other agricultural commodity is the evil done in the industry by the upsets which take place every three or four years owing to what is called in the report of the Lane Fox Commission, the "pig price cycle." It is interesting to notice that they say that whereas in the seven years which ended in May of last year there was a variation of supplies in beef, mutton and lamb of only 2½ per cent., yet, owing to the operation of the pig price cycle, there was in that period a range of variation of 30 per cent. with regard to supplies of pigs. That is not good for anybody. It does the producer no good. He invariably starts breeding pigs when the feeding stuffs prices are low and the price of pigs is high, only to find that by the time the pigs are ready for the market, the feeding stuffs prices are much higher and the price of pigs has fallen away almost to nothing. It ought to be possible to get that matter into very much better order to the great advantage of the producer without doing the consumer any harm. That is one of the main things which must be kept in mind by those who have to put forward these schemes. It is right that we should begin with the question of the bacon factory upon which naturally follows the control and regulation with regard to the pig. It is only by putting supplies through a factory which is part of a scheme that you can be sure of sticking to the pig quota allotted to pig breeders and feeders. We who are in favour of this very great advance also realise that it is a great experiment.

I take up the point which the Minister made that we should do all we possibly can to see to it that the matter is explained, that the people who are entitled and expected to take part in the voting shall do so, and that they shall know all about what they are voting for. Nine-teen-twentieths of these schemes are, inevitably, because of their very nature, in purely formal, legal wording describing boards, voting, and vacancies, and, to some extent, pains and penalties. They cannot get a real picture of the organisation which it is intended to set up. I do not complain in the least, but here is a document in formal language setting up formalities and machinery, and not one person in a thousand can make head or tail of what is intended by looking through the scheme. One has to refer to the Report of the Lane Fox Commission in order to understand the position. The ordinary man will not do that. It is too much of a mouthful for him. It will be difficult even for anyone who is really accustomed to read these things to understand what is really intended. I make the suggestion to the Minister—it cannot be acted upon this time, because it is too late—that on other occasions when schemes of this kind, similarly formal in their framing and wording, come forward, he should consider whether, in addition to the speech he makes—he has placed the matter so fully and clearly before us this afternoon—he cannot present to the House a paper which, in a less compass than sending out the OFFICIAL REPORT of his speech will put before the industry the real inwardness of the scheme.

The present scheme is being canvassed by those concerned. The agricultural committees are doing their best by distributing a leaflet describing what is intended. That is all to the good, but if something could be put before the industry concerned, not merely on the authority even of that important body, the National Farmers' Union, but on the greater authority of the Minister of Agriculture, and we could have copies of it to send to our constituents who are interested in the matter, it would help to popularise the schemes and in that way contribute to their success. Some of my constituents who are interested have raised this point. They say, looking at the draft of the marketing of bacon scheme, "It looks to us as though it is intended to set up a considerable trust." It is clear that the people who are to propose the board under the marketing of bacon scheme are the representatives of the present bacon factories. They are to be brought together, and means are to be taken to see that they play fair with one another; but in the future they will be the buyers and the sellers of bacon. With certain exceptions they will be the buyers, the standardisers and the advertisers of bacon in this country. They say that that is no doubt inevitable, and ask, "What procedure is to be followed to see that they do not develop any of the defects or abuses of a trust, namely, buying too cheap and selling too dear? They will have very great powers." I think I know what the answer to that really is. One can find the answer in the report of the Commission. It is that the price of pigs will be based upon a certain formula. It will be based on the price of foodstuffs with regard to the main part of it, and with regard to the other part which will be over and above that formula, there will be negotiations between the Bacon Marketing Board and the Pig Marketing Board, with the Pig Industrial Development Board ready to settle the differences between the two and to see fair play. I believe that that is the answer, although all we know about the Pig Industrial Development Board is that it has not yet been set up.

The scheme is put before us as a pig marketing scheme. It is not a pig marketing scheme; it is a bacon-pig marketing scheme. As was pointed out by Sir William Haldane in his rather moderate and weighty reservations to the report of the Lane Fox Commission, there are dangers in regulating the supply in the organisation of bacon pigs and leaving the question of the pork-pig and the pork supply entirely unregulated. I hope that the obvious risk may not really materialise. Obviously, it is a thing which will have to be watched very carefully, and I am glad that it is in the hands of a Minister so capable of watching and taking the necessary action, if action is shown to be necessary, as the Minister of whom I am at present speaking.