I beg to move, in page 4, line 23, after the second word "shall," to insert the words: except as regards payments in respect of assessments under Schedule B. I rise to move this Amendment in the fewest possible words, in view of the automatic procedure under the Guillotine Resolution. I ask just once again if it is worth while to ask for some consideration to be shown to farmers in respect of Schedule B. Theirs is the hardest hit occupation of all the occupations in this country, and surely this is not the time to put fresh burdens upon the industry.

This proposal has quadrupled the burdens of the farmers under Schedule B, and therefore I ask hon. Members to vote against it.

I propose to say only a few sentences in regard to this Amendment. The short point is that farmers already have the advantage of a conventional assessment based on one time the annual valuation, or, if their actual profits fall below that figure, they can come under Schedule D. Therefore, it is clear that the farmers enjoy certain privileges at the present time under the Income Tax.

I rise for one purpose, and that is to make clear to the House the monstrous nature of this Guillotine proposal with regard to taxation. The acceleration of the Income Tax, whether to farmers or other people, is going to create a great deal of difficulty for hundreds and thousands of people, and it will be very oppressive. It is a monstrous thing to compel the discussion of this important Clause to take place in a matter of about 12 minutes. It is a wicked business.

I would like to congratulate one Liberal Member upon having had the courage of his convictions.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 227; Noes, 265.

It being after Half-past Ten of the Clock, the CHAIRMAN proceeded, pursuant to the Order of the House of 4th June, to put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the business to

be concluded at Half-past Ten of the. Clock at this day's Sitting,

Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 267; Noes, 227.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. T. Kennedy.]

On a Motion of this kind it would be quite out of order to discuss the action of the House in passing the Guillotine Resolution or the attitude of the Chair, which is only the servant of the House, but it is necessary to realise that for the last 10 minutes the Government have been raking money out of the taxpayers' pocket at the rate of £1,000,000 a minute. [Interruption.] I make no complaint of that. It is no doubt right for the Government to bring forward whatever Motion they please. The Government supporters will have to answer for their action, not to us, but to the country. [Interruption.] But the action of the Government in submitting this Motion to the House is one which deserves the most unshrinkable condemnation in every quarter—[Interruption.]

The Question before the Committee is that I report Progress and ask leave to sit again, and the hon. and gallant Member must show why I should not report Progress.

It is difficult within the drastic limitations which the majority has imposed upon the minority to give adequate reasons why we should not report Progress, but I should have thought that the proceedings of the last few minutes were a sufficient answer. The Government have shown the most arrogant contempt of a minority ever shown, and an overwhelming class prejudice. The Amendment we were proposing to put before the Committee, if an opportunity had been afforded us, was to call attention to the case of the professional man. [Interruption.]

We cannot discuss any Amendment on the Motion to report Progress, and it is my duty to put the Question.

Of course, Sir Robert, we realise that, and we want the country to realise it also. We want the country to realise that the House of Commons is muzzled by a Motion submitted by the party who have always claimed to be the democratic party, who have always claimed to be the guardian of free debate and by those who were loudest in their condemnation when any Motion to limit debate was brought forward by the Conservative party when they were in office. I wish to draw the attention of the country also to the fact that we are asked now to report Progress, and to carry this Motion with the assistance and the connivance and the active support of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Darwen (Sir H. Samuel) and his friends. It is the action of the Darwen— [Interruption.]

The hon. and gallant Member up to now has not given any reason for not reporting Progress.

I bow to your Ruling without a moment's hesitation, and had it not been for it I should certainly have considered that I was advancing such reasons. But it is certainly not my desire to contravene your Ruling or the Rules of the House. I ask you whether we should be in order in discussing Clause 7 of the Bill at this point? Surely the proceedings have shown that the Bill requires more discussion and consideration that it is likely to get under present conditions? There is still three-quarters of an hour left of Parliamentary time. Are we to pass now from discussion of a Bill which has had to be guillotined in so stringent a fashion? Should we be within our rights in discussing whether or not we should report Progress or whether we should now proceed to discuss further Clauses of the Bill? I quite realise that it would be out of order for us to discuss the merits of Clause 7, owing to the Resolution passed by the House, but it seems to me that we are fully within our rights in discussing whether we should now—[Interrupttion.] The Chairman of Committees has a duty not merely to the Government side of the Committee but to minorities. We can well understand that hon. Members opposite are ashamed of their action. As a point of Order, I ask whether we are in order in declining, as an Opposition, to part with the Bill now, and whether we are in order in continuing the discussion of the Bill and not reporting Progress here and now?

If the Committee carries the Motion that I do not report Progress, the Debate can be carried on.

If we can continue till Eleven, surely it is not beyond the Rules to continue till 11.30?

Commander Sir BOLTON EYRES MONSELL:

On a point of Order. The Guillotine which the Government have imposed upon us merely says that the Guillotine shall fall at a certain time. If we can prevent the Motion being carried, cannot we discuss Clause 7 or Clause 8 all night?

Provided the Motion if got rid of, I will give a decision.

Then I understand, Sir Robert, that your Ruling is that the discussion on the Bill can proceed indefinitely, this being exempted Business, and not subject to the Eleven o'clock Rule?

The Motion is, "That I do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." We must dispose of that first.

Whether the Motion is carried or not, I understand the discussion on the Bill can then proceed?

The procedure is in accordance with that governing the sittings of the House.

Let me be accurate on this point. [Interruption.] Some day it will be the turn of hon. Members opposite to be in Opposition. If discussion follows upon the Motion to report Progress, and if that Motion is carried, and we report Progress, does that mean the discussion can then take place upon other topics or upon the Bill? What exactly is the position?

The Question is, "That I do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again." If that Motion is carried, I shall leave the Chair and report to Mr. Speaker.

Then it is the desire of the Opposition, obviously, that that Motion should not be carried, and it is the right of the Opposition to bring forward arguments to show why it should not be carried. I have put forward, to the best of my ability, arguments to show why it is a Parliamentary scandal that the Motion should be put and carried now with public business in such a condition that the Government can pass the whole of a year's Budget through the Committee stage in one day. Protests have come from other sections of the House beside this section. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite who are so desirous of stifling discussion, though they may succeed in stopping it in this House, will not succeed in stopping it in the country. There are other sections who also wish to make a protest to-night. For that reason, and that reason only, I resume my seat now although there are arguments which would be quite sufficient to take up the rest of the time available to the House, I am not putting them because, unlike hon. Members opposite, we wish to give other sections of the House a chance of speaking.

The first argument I will adduce against the Motion to report Progress is that, like you, Sir, the night is young. Before the night gets older, we ought to have more time than is allotted to us under the Guillotine to discuss future Clauses. The fact is that, though we cannot go back on what has been decided, we can take advantage of what has happened, namely, there being no Government Amendments outstand-at 10.30, so that the House has a period of time in addition to that allotted under the Guillotine which it can easily give to discussing the great and major issues which we are also to discuss to-morrow. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury to realise that what we have just seen is one of the worst examples of the use of the Guillotine ever seen in the House of Commons. Anyone who has even a cursory acquaintance with the Amendments which have been put down to these Clauses, knows that more time ought to be given to the discussion of the Clauses. Therefore, I appeal to the hon. Gentleman to withdraw this Motion and to give the Committee the full use of every moment available for the discussion of the fundamental issues wrapped up in Clauses 7 and 8. I oppose the Motion because we ought to have not merely hours more, but days more in which to discuss these matters.

11.0 p.m.

There are many reasons for opposing this Motion though there are one or two reasons why it might be advisable to report Progress at this juncture. [Interruption.] I shall come to those reasons later. It is quite clear that on a very important Measure the Government have moved to report Progress although 20 minutes of Parliamentary time were still available. During those 20 minutes we could have discussed at least one of the Amendments on Clause 7, many of which will, inevitably, and in the nature of things, go without any discussion to-morrow. There are many Amendments to this Clause dealing with all sorts of matters and the 20 minutes might have been devoted, for instance, to discussing the question of the co-operative funds invested in land. That time might have been devoted to some other important subject which will probably be left undiscussed on a future day—

On a point of Order. May I ask what we have done to deserve this?

At any rate, some people have been knighted for listening to me. There are other reasons why we ought not to report Progress. It is quite clear that, at some time of the day, before we can honestly say that we are reporting Progress—

On a point of Order. May I draw your attention to the fact that the Guillotine Motion includes this Clause: On an allotted day, no dilatory Motion with respect to those proceedings, nor Motion that the Chairman do report Progress or do leave the Chair, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, nor Motion to re-commit the Bill, shall be received unless moved by the Government, and the Question on such Motion, if moved by the Government, shall be put forthwith without any Debate.

I understand that that Motion refers to the allotted business on that particular day. The allotted business of this day was finished at 10.30 p.m.

On a point of Order. I am wanting your Ruling arising out of what the hon. Gentleman has just read from the Order governing the Guillotine. The last paragraph of it says: Nothing in this Order shall—

1. (a) prevent any proceedings which under this Order are to be concluded on any particular day being concluded on any other day or necessitate any particular day or part of a particular day being given to any such proceedings if those proceedings have been otherwise disposed of."

The Motion now before the House does not refer to any business set down for this day. The point before the House is the Motion that I should report Progress and ask leave to sit again.

I quite appreciate that we cannot go back on anything that the House has settled, but in order to make the Motion to report Progress one which we can discuss, we should be able to take into account whether, if it is negatived, we may or may not go on to the next Clause.

I have indicated already that if this Motion is carried, I shall report to the Speaker.

Mr. CHAMBERLAIN:

Have you not already ruled that if this Motion to report Progress is rejected by the House, the House will then be at liberty to go on discussing Clause 7?

I have ruled that, if the Motion before the Committee is rejected, we can go on.

On a point of Order. In view of the fact that the business before the House with respect to the Finance Bill has now been completed, does it not follow that the Motion to report Progress has no relation to the Finance Bill, and should be put at 11 o'clock?

The Motion to report Progress does not relate to the business that came to an end at 10.30. That business was disposed of at 10.30. There was a lapse of time between then and 11 o'clock, and if this Motion is defeated, we can go on, as it is exempted business.

On a point of Order. In the Resolution allotting the time for the Finance Bill, Clauses 1 and 2, and Clauses 3 to 6 are allotted to the first day, and Clauses 7 and 8 to the second day. Does the second allotted day start this evening if the Motion before the House is rejected?

If the Committee finish with the business before the time laid down, they can proceed with the next Clause.

In view of the fact that the business on the Order Paper for the day finished automatically at 10.30, and the business now, namely, whether you shall report Progress or not is not exempted business, does not that come under the Standing Order which says that the House shall stand adjourned at Eleven o'Clock?

The Motion before the House is that I shall report Progress, and that has relation to the Finance Bill.

I was endeavouring to explain when I was interrupted that we could well use the time which we have now at our disposal to discuss the important financial part of the Bill which comes after Clause 6. [HON. MEMBEES: "Divide!"] Unless the Government can produce some good reason why—[HON. MEMBERS: "Divide!"] I think that it is essential that every minute of the time of this House—

Mr. MACLEAN:

I wish to ask for your Ruling on this point. You have stated that in the event of this Motion being defeated we could then go on, as this is exempted business. The Guillotine Motion puts an end to the first day's progress on the Bill. It states explicitly that the first day's business ends at 10.30, and that the second day's business will be occupied with Clauses 7 and 8. I wish to ask whether, in the event of this Motion being defeated, any other business can be brought forward, and if so, what business other than the business we have discussed?

Is it not a fact that the Guillotine Resolution did not decide what the hon. Member has said, but decided as to the compartments of the Bill on which discussion should end at 10.30?

That is what I have said to the Committee several times. The Guillotine Resolution determines the time at which discussion on certain portions of the Bill will come to an end, but that does not prevent the Committee from proceeding with the Finance Bill. The Finance Bill is exempted business, and no provision has been made in relation to that.

Mr. MACLEAN:

I wish to draw attention to the fact that the House has already decided that the business on the second allotted day will be the discussion of Clauses 7 and 8. If this Motion is defeated that does not mean the defeat of the previous Resolution of the House to take Clauses 7 and 8 upon the second allotted day. If this Resolution were defeated I submit that we could not take Clause 7 to-night, and would require, under the decision of the House, to wait until to-morrow.

Certain times were fixed at which to bring to an end discussions on particular sections of the Bill. At those times the Question is put upon the business before the Committee. Should we get to the end of a particular section before the time fixed, we could go on to the next section. That is my Ruling.

Mr. MACLEAN:

With all due deference to your Ruling I wish to say that the House has already taken a decision upon this matter, and that that decision cannot be overruled in Committee or by any Chairman except with the consent of the Committee. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order!"] I wish to say, with all due respect, that the Chairman, as well as other Members of the Committee, is bound by the decisions of the House. The Standing Orders are the decisions of the House, which the Chairman administers, and the decision of the House has already been taken as to what business is to be considered upon the second allotted day. If this Motion were defeated the second allotted day's business would still be commencing with Clause 7, and that could not be discussed to-night. I respectfully ask if you can quote any precedent for this particular Ruling.

Further to that point of Order. Is it not clear that a great part of the procedure of the House has nothing to do with decisions of the House but with decisions of the Chair?

The Chairman has to interpret what has been decided by the House. The last portion of the Guillotine Resolution reads: Nothing in this Order shall prevent any other business being proceeded with on any particular day, or part of a particular day, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the House, after any proceedings to be concluded under this Order on that particular day, or part of a particular day, have been disposed of.The business to be concluded to-day was disposed of and the continuance of the business is "other business.

Mr. MACLEAN:

rose—

I have given my decision, and the Committee must accept it.

Mr. MACLEAN:

rose—

HON. MEMBERS:

Name.

I have given my Ruling and that is the end of it.

On a point of Order. When you have stated your definite Ruling time, on a point of Order, is it in order to go back upon that Ruling? Surely that is a waste of the time of the Committee.

That is not a point of Order.

Mr. MACLEAN:

On a point of Order—

HON. MEMBERS:

Name!

It must be a different point of Order from the last one which was put by the hon. Member.

Mr. MACLEAN:

My point of Order is on your Ruling, Mr. Chairman, in regard to the portion of the Guillotine Motion which you quoted against me. It says: Nothing in this Order shall prevent any other business being proceeded with. When a particular Measure which has been before the House has passed its allotted period this House then proceeds to "other business." The other business is Orders Nos. 2, 3, and 4 on the Order Paper. I submit that that is the meaning that was intended when this particular Guillotine Motion was granted and that is the interpretation which should be placed upon it.

I interpret it as meaning any other business apart from the business that was to be finished at 10.30. This in exempted business.

I apologise most sincerely if my remarks may seem disconnected, but my only wish is to try to persuade the Government to use this time to give us a further chance of discussing this important Measure, and I would ask the Government to meet us on that point.

rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 166.

Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 232; Noes, 165.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.