Clause 1. — (Substitution of Departments for Boards of Health and Agriculture and Prison Commissioners for Scotland.)

Part of Orders of the Day — Reorganisation of Offices (Scotland) Bill. – in the House of Commons am ar 9 Gorffennaf 1928.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Edwin Scrymgeour Mr Edwin Scrymgeour , Dundee

During the course of the Committee proceedings, the whole of this subject was very well discussed and thoroughly analysed, and now we feel that it is essential for us to make a strong protest against these proposals. The Secretary of State for Scotland has already given us an indication of dissent as regards his experience in the administration of the office which he holds. There is one justification for our position, and it is one which is qualified by his own predecessor's authority. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. W. Adamson), on having the case presented to him, said that he had experienced no difficulty in managing the administrative business of his office under present conditions. The right hon. Gentleman may think that opinion is of little value, but it is the opinion of one who has held the position of Secretary for Scotland, and so far as his qualifications are concerned, I do not think anyone will take exception to them now, because he has put up a case which is not in agreement with that of the right hon. Gentleman.

The argument of the right hon. Gentleman is that he must have one man in particular who is going to scrutinise and thoroughly examine the work of a particular Department. I think it would be a far more reasonable attitude to adopt that under the present system of Boards you should have men specially well qualified, indeed specialists in the consideration of these important issues who should do their utmost to focus all the evidence which they can bring to bear and all their own personal experience. This should be presented to the Government, and I think that would be by far the best course to adopt. If you are going to say, as evidently is the intention of the right hon. Gentleman, that as a matter of fact during the career of the right hon. Gentleman and the present Government this system has failed entirely, and that that is the reason why he feels it is necessary to take that course, then we could reasonably arrive at the conclusion that perhaps there is some deficiency in the right hon. Gentleman's own findings as regards the case which has been presented to him.

If we take the Prison Commissioners we have very strong views that these men have done special service for Scotland. I might mention the situation which is prevalent at the moment in Glasgow where a gang of those considered to be ruffians have armed themselves, and have had very strong condemnation meted out to them from a Judge of the land. There has been a special call to the magistrates of Glasgow asking them to deal very severely with these cases. The answer made by one of the magistrates was that if these lads could find employment they were not likely to be armed in a way which has produced such serious trouble to the community. Such a case, in my view, is a very effective one for the consideration of a board, and not one suitable for the consideration of an official who would have simply to adjudicate upon the point and advise the Minister. Such a board, to which the Secretary of State for Scotland has frequently paid a tribute, consists of those who have very largely made a life study of criminality and have used their influence, backed up by their personal knowledge, in order to give advice in certain directions not only in the interests of those who are suffering imprisonment but also as to how they shall be led in the future. The question of the Prison Commissioners is of even more importance than that of the other two Boards, because, rather than looking at this matter in the formal sort of way in which it would be dealt with by an official, as contrasted with those who have at heart the personal interests of these who come under such serious condemnation from the law of the land, it is of the utmost value to the country that there should be a board giving special consideration to these issues and directing the mind of the Government thereon.

From the wider point of view of the Board of Health, the Board of Agriculture and the Prison Commissioners, the strength of our case lies in the fact that