Part of Orders of the Day — Reorganisation of Offices (Scotland) Bill. – in the House of Commons am ar 9 Gorffennaf 1928.
I think we realise the frankness and straightforwardness of the Secretary of State for Scotland in accepting full responsibility for having put this proposal before the Cabinet and before this House. We admire his courage, but, at the same time, I think we are all of us, on this side, of the opinion that he is letting Scotland down in this matter, and, unfortunately, it is not the first time that Scotland has been let down by this Government. This is only the culmination of a series of acts which have all tended towards either taking away some of the privileges which Scotland enjoyed, or making it still more like a province of England. The right hon. Gentleman said that we must change with the times, but he has not shown us that the taking away of a Board system and replacing it by a Departmental system is necessarily going with the times. I think it is the present Government which have set up an Electricity Commission and a Broadcasting Commission. They have set up Boards to deal with these matters, and surely these are very modern and very important things. If they have thought it was not desirable to put one person in charge of these matters, but to have a number of people round a table discussing and deciding on ways and means, I think it shows that something has yet to be said for the Board system.
The right hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty (Mr. Macpherson) again expressed his approval of the Bill, but with a good deal of modification this time, and I think it is obvious that a study of the Measure has convinced him that the case for it is not quite so strong. After all, it is a very tragic spectacle that the Liberal Members for Scotland have ceased to stand up for the liberties and independence of Scotland, and that they are content to take the subordinate and lowly position which this Conservative Government seem determined to assign to our country. I think the right hon. Gentleman, in giving us the case of Ireland, was not giving us the case of a country which could be compared properly with Scotland in this matter, because there is no doubt that the Board system does suit the genius of the Scottish people. I agreed very much with what the hon. Member for Perth (Mr. Skelton) said so well, and I am sure we appreciate the courage which he showed and which it always takes for an individual to differ from his party. He, obviously, spoke quite conscientiously and with a great deal of knowledge when he opposed this Bill. The right hon. Gentleman made a good deal of the fact that the real controlling power is Parliament, but we all know that Parliament is becoming less and less a controlling power with each Bill that comes to the House. Administration is becoming now much more important, and Ministers are getting a great deal more power and liberty to work by regulations, and a great many things which are of importance in the administration of the country never come before Parliament at all. Therefore, it is not quite true to say that everything which happens in the administration of Scotland will necessarily and primarily come before Parliament, because that is not the case.
I was much interested in what the right hon. Gentleman said about technical men. This is a subject of great importance. It is of increasing importance, because in all Departments of Government and administration the technical expert is becoming more important, and his place in regard to other administrative bodies is becoming increasingly studied and recognised. In spite of all that the right hon. Gentleman says, that he will consult the experts and that he will be in touch with the technical people, this Bill does not show any method by which that can be accomplished. In the Beard of Health at present there are the head of the Medical Department, the head of the National Health Insurance Department, the head of the Pensions Department and the head of the Law Department. All these heads of departments will have to take one step back when this Bill is passed. Their decisions and their advice will come to the Minister by way of the new head of the Department, who will be a civil servant, and have no technical knowledge, and he will not be in a position to give any greater weight to the advice of his experts than will the right hon. Gentleman himself. As a matter of fact, all that the right hon. Gentleman is getting by this system is somebody else to make up his mind for him, with no better authority and no better ability to do it, but probably rather less. That person will be in the same position as regards knowledge of these matter as the right hon. Gentleman, and all that will happen will be that these technical men, instead of having direct access to the Minister, will have to go through these civil servants.
The Minister says that there is no reason why he should not deal with the experts direct. Where is the discipline of the department to be then? If the head of the department is to be the head, he has the right to see the Minister. If, behind his back, any of the heads of the technical department are to see the Minister, and give perhaps different advice to that of the head of the department, where will the discipline of the department be? The suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman that he will not lose touch with his technical experts, and will still keep the discipline of his department, will not work in practice. It is interesting to know that this question of the technical and administrative men is becoming a matter of very great importance throughout many branches of our public life. That is why I regard this Bill as such a backward step. I have recently had some experience in hearing the views of technical officers in our Colonial Service. That service at first was clearly an administrative and a clerical service; technical men were not there at all, but during the last few generations we have had agricultural and forestry experts, doctors and other technical people, and it is a matter of great moment to them, and is being seriously considered in various connections, how they are going to be placed in relation to the administrators and civil servants who have an older footing in the service.
This Bill proposes a method which is retrograde and against the whole tendency of the recommendations of those who have studied the subject, and it seems to me that if the right hon. Gentleman tries to get over the difficulty by consulting the technical experts independently he will create chaos and cause a lack of discipline in the various Departments. The right hon. Gentleman speaks about the difficulty that arises if there is a division of opinion on the Board. Then is the opportunity for him to make up his mind, after hearing first one side and then the other. Personally, I would much rather hear two sides of a question, and then make up my mind on it, than take a finished opinion from an individual who was no more qualified to give it than I was, although I had to be responsible for it.
I was glad the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ross and Cromarty referred to the Board of Health, because its case represents one of the greatest tragedies of this Bill. The Board of Health is the most efficient and up-to-date Government Department which I know. It has done a great deal of work, not only in the mere administration of its Department, but in stimulating and strengthening Scottish local authorities in various ways; and, having regard to other Departments of which we know something, I think the change can only mean less efficiency and not more. In this connection I would like to ask why there has been such delay in filling up the medical post on that Board which is vacant? I wonder whether we shall see a real evidence of the Anglicising of the Scottish system by the transfer to the Board of someone from the Ministry of Health? I would like to know why promotion is not being made from among those in the Department at the present time who are eligible for that post?
One of the great features of the work of the Boards in Scotland has been their success with local authorities. Scottish local authorities are sometimes a little difficult to manage. They are independent, they are sensitive, and they do not like too many instructions from the central authority. It has been one of the principal functions of this Board not only to anticipate the needs of local authorities, but to meet them when they were not satisfied, and they have done that work with a great deal of success. If they now come up against the ukases of a typical Whitehall bureaucrat, there will be a good deal of trouble for the right hon. Gentleman. I do not think it is of much use to hope for the withdrawal of this Bill, but I feel that it is the duty of those of us who are Scotsmen, and who object to and resent this change, to make our protest here; and I hope that at some other time, when conditions are more favourable, and when a wiser Government is in power, that we may find a reversion to that system which, as I have said, is suitable to the genius of the Scottish people, is essentially Scottish in character, and helps to perpetuate and to carry out those traditions of the Scottish people of which we are all proud.