Orders of the Day — Contributory Pensions Bill.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am ar 15 Gorffennaf 1925.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Arthur Hayday Mr Arthur Hayday , Nottingham West

I beg to move, on page 30, line 21, to leave out from the word "Act" to the word "shall" in line 22

This Amendment proposes to deal with such part of the Clause as denies the right of unemployment benefit to an insured person having reached the age of 65. I suggest that this is a very serious step for the Government to take under such circumstances as I shall demonstrate. Here it is possible for an employed person to have been paying unemployment contributions for 12 or 13 years without ever having drawn any benefit, by reason of having had continuous employment, or having claimed a refund of such contributions, thereby still having, when bordering on the age of 65, a considerable amount of credit standing to his account under the unemployment insurance part of the Health Insurance Act. This Clause proposes that should such an insured person fall out of employment near the age of 65 after the commencement of this Bill, whatever credit may have accrued to his account, must be entirely lost and the insured person refused the benefit of such contributions. Having reached the age of 65 he must then come on the old age pension part of the Bill. Let me point out what that means in money values. Having contributed for a number of years he would have been entitled, as an unemployed person seeking full time employment being available for such employment and willing and able to perform it, to 18s. a week so long as he remained unemployed and was available for such employment. At once his 18s. under the Unemployment Act becomes 10s. under the Pensions Act. The injustice of this is rendered more serious owing to the fact that such an insured person cannot now apply for a refund of contributions standing to his credit. He must give up the whole of those contributions. He may, indeed, be one of those youthful middle-aged men available and readily re-absorbed into industry as soon as the opportunity presents itself. He will again be reabsorbed into industry possibly, but in each successive period of unemployment is not looked upon as an unemployed person within the meaning of the Unemployed Insurance Act but as an old age pensioner under this present proposal, so that you can quite see the difficulties that such an insured member is confronted with.

I suggest that it is cruel and unkind in the extreme, because at 65, if married, and with a wife less than 65, there would be an additional 5s. unemployment benefit for the wife. That would make 23s. per week, for which he has paid the higher contributions that came along and were imposed upon him when the fund showed a deficiency. I have not made the calculation, but I suggest it is possible for many pounds to stand to the credit of such an insured person in the Unemployment Fund and because, forsooth, he is 65 when this Bill becomes an Act, and operates as from the early part of next year, the income to the home is to be 10s., his old age pension, as against the possible 23s. for which he has made provision compulsorily under the Act. One can well see the serious hardship imposed in the Bill, because now oven were he to say "I must now appeal to the Guardians," if he goes there there, is another Clause which says the guardians must take the whole of these things into consideration, and they may not grant such relief as they would otherwise have done were it not for this money accruing, so that there is an handicap. There is a suggestion that the standard of living must be much lower than the one even established by the unemployment benefits under the Bill. I suppose we shall be told this is really a simplification Bill and is intended to draw in the rough fringes where there is a possible overlapping under Health, Unemployment and the present Bill. But in taking off those trimmings every time you attempt to prevent an overlap you are instituting to a much harsher degree the handicap and confusion prevailing at present in the minds of those who ought to be accepted to benefit under those respective Acts, and particularly the Unemployment Act, without any question. Is this Bill a reward for service? I could understand to some extent, but not entirely, if it were a case of an unemployed person having exhausted benefit for which ho had established a stamp right under the Unemployment Insurance Act. But this is not a question of extended benefit in cases over 65 years of age. I could understand the suggestion, although I do not entirely agree with it, but it would be fairer than the present proposals, if you said, "You have exhausted your right, and instead of conceding extended benefit, for which there is no established stamp right, we propose to pay you an old age pension at the age of 65 under this Bill." But so long as the person has an established stamp right, you have no right to introduce a Clause in this Bill, under a proposal for pensions for widows, orphans and old persons, to wipe out years of self-sacrificing contributions made by an insured person, and thereby to reduce the liability on the Unemployment Fund.

Is that the reason why you are proposing to reduce the contributions in regard to unemployment insurance in order to soften the handicap of the employers' contributions towards this particular pension? Has there been any agreement between the Government and the interests represented from the employers' side, and no consultations with the workers' side of the contributing element to the fund? You say to the employers, "We will reduce your liability." I have heard it said from the benches opposite that the employers need have no fear of the increased burden of contribution towards this fund, because it was the intention of the Government to lighten their burden in regard to the Unemployment Fund. You are lightening their burden there, but you did not say that you were going to lighten the responsi- bility of the fund, under this Bill, to meet its obligations. If that is the only way you have for bringing the Unemployment Fund to a state of stability and wiping out its deficiency, I am sorry for your human outlook in dealing with those who have contributed faithfully, on the expectation that they would have rendered to them at least the value of the contributions which they had made to the insurance scheme.

In 1911 you entered into a bargain for contributions to the Unemployment Fund, and you extended it in 1920. You said, "So long as you pay your contributions and conform to the conditions, we shall conform to our responsibilities and obligations and we shall see that the fund is used for that purpose." Now, you come along and you lead the people to believe they are going to have old age pensions at the age of 65, and that you are going to wipe out the, inquisitorial inquiries into the means limit. At the same time, you subtly introduce into a Bill of this kind a cruel intention, and instead of giving them 18s. a week when they are 65 you cut them down to 10s. You ease the Unemployment Fund of a liability and you ease the Old Age Pension Fund of a liability. I ask the Minister to take serious account of this matter. There are several unfair proposals in regard to need pensions and orphans who are dependants of persons killed through fatal accidents, and now you are imposing a hardship upon an unemployed person who reaches the age of 65.

Do not be so unfair in your dealings with these people. These people have been the stand-by of the nation in industry. You have cut enough of them out of unemployment pay by reason of their having turned the age of 60 and not likely to be re-absorbed. You have done enough damage to those people. Do not increase the damage by cutting down their allowance, whilst they have a stamp right, established by contributions, from 18s. to 10s. Where there is a wife in the house under 65, instead of the amount being 23s., for which contributions have been paid, they are only to receive 10s. It is hard, cruel and harsh. It is not a method of which any British Government ought to boast, or ought to be proud of introducing into a measure of social amelioration. It is misleading people into the idea that they are being protected and defended in the days of their decline and hardship. You cannot expect a working man at the age of 65 to have accumulated sufficient to invest, and from the interest of which he can make up the difference between 10s. and 18s., or possibly 23s., for himself and wife. As a thrifty man he has done his best, but under this Bill he is to be treated in a cruel manner, and the sooner people outside know of the cruelty, the better. The very least thing that the Government should do is to establish a right to claim a refund, with interest, of the amount standing to his credit before he is cut entirely adrift from the only resources open to him. Instead of giving these poor people a stable boat to carry thorn through the rough weather you are giving them a shaky old boat with a bucket or a pail, which may cause them to loosen their hold and sink into oblivion.