Orders of the Day — Contributory Pensions Bill.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am ar 15 Gorffennaf 1925.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Albert Alexander Mr Albert Alexander , Sheffield, Hillsborough

The right hon. Gentleman has not given us the information we asked for with regard to the numbers. I regard it as being of some importance that we should have the estimated numbers in respect of these two categories to whom this Clause will apply. Then I think the Attorney-General, in his reply with regard to exempt persons, said that of course the argument used by the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. R. Davies) was already met by the fact that the employer was not exempt from contribution. I think the Attorney-General has failed to realise two points. First, that the employer will be compelled to pay in respect of persons who are otherwise exempt, and you will be placing a charge upon industry for which no benefits will accrue in respect of those in his employ. The right hon. Gentleman has not met the point which was made by the Member for Westhoughton with regard to this effect upon employment. Those who have experience in wage negotiations know that even the smallest additional charge per week by way of insurance affects such negotiations. Supposing that, in this case, widows, because of the very meagre amount of the pension given under this Bill, go back into industry. This class of widow is to be exempt from contributions, both to Unemployment Insurance and to Health Insurance, it may be to the extent of 6d. or rather more per week, and it will follow that very often they will be prepared to work for a slightly lower figure than those other classes of women who will be compelled under the law to pay these contributions, and we may be—I know it is only slight, but we have to keep our eye on these things—we may be in such a position that we are tending to bear down the general level of wages in industry. In fact, my hon. Friends again and again, during the Debates on this Bill, have pointed out that the pension is so meagre that widows will probably be driven into industry in greater numbers than has yet been realised, and, because they are getting some pension, they will probably be prepared to work at a lower figure, in many cases, than women who are not in receipt of any pension at all. I shall be glad, before we come to a decision on this, if the Attorney-General or the Parliamentary Secretary will reply to these points.