Orders of the Day — Contributory Pensions Bill.

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am ar 15 Gorffennaf 1925.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Rhys Davies Mr Rhys Davies , Westhoughton

I desire to oppose this Clause, for the following reasons. It is a Clause exempting widows both from health and unemployment insurance. I have read it very care- fully, and, as far as I gather, there are two classes of widows who will be entirely thus excluded-the widows of persons who die after the commencement of the operation of the Bill, and widows now in receipt of Service pensions in respect of the late War. I am not clear whether women who are in receipt of Service pensions include women whose husbands are disabled, or whether this is confined to widows only. Even if those two types only are included in this Clause, I think we ran make out a very strong case for its deletion. I will reduce a case to the concrete, so that the Committee may see how it works. Take the case, first, of a woman who is childless, and who loses her husband after the commencement of this Act. She will receive 10s. per week for life by way of pension under this Measure. That woman will obviously go into industry, but in spite of the fact that all the other workpeople around her are compulsorily insured for National Health Insurance and Unemployment Insurance purposes, she is not entitled to insure under either of those two schemes. It seems to me that there must be something wrong in such a provision. The fact that she is entitled to receive 10s. a week ought not to deprive her of other benefits, if she cares to pay for them. I also fail to understand why a widow is ruled out of the Health Insurance scheme, because that will prevent her obtaining sickness benefits, disablement benefit, or, maternity benefit-I do not know whether that case would arise-or any additional benefits provided by approved societies. There is still a bigger factor. Although she gets 10s. a week as a widow's pension in respect of the insurance contributions paid by her dead husband, she is deprived for life of any medical benefit at all under the panel system of the Health Insurance scheme.

This Clause contains a very much more important provision than I apprehended when I read it first. Can the hon. Gentleman give us an idea—I have not found it in the actuary's report—as to how many women there are in the first category, say—those who become widows after the commencement of the operation of this Act? If he cannot tell us the number of women of the type who would fall into this category for the first year, I am sure he is totally unable to say how many there will be in the second or third year, because this is a growing number. There are thousands, I should say scores of thousands, of women who, if they were not in receipt of this 10s. a week widow's pension would automatically and compulsorily be insured for National Health Insurance and Unemployment Insurance purposes. To deprive these women of the benefits of those two schemes merely because they are in receipt of that 10s. a week is a monstrous thing to do, and, in my view, this Clause ought not to be added to the Bill.

Let me pass to the other part of the case, which refers to women with children under 14 years of age who become widows after the commencement of this Act. If at all possible, those women ought to remain at home to mother their children. The idea of a widows' pension scheme that I always had was one that would give a pension sufficient to allow a woman who became a widow to mother her children in her own home. The pensions given under this scheme are totally insufficient to provide for the case I have mentioned. Take the ease of the widow with children under 14. That woman would be compelled to do something; and so far as Lancashire is concerned, she will enter industry in the mill or the factory after the death of her husband.

The case was made out at the commencement of the Debate that the childless widow would be a competing factor in the labour market. Surely if the argument was good enough that this typo of widow would compete in the labour market as cheap labour, she would be a much more attractive factor in the workshop if the employer is not called upon to pay any insurance payments in respect of her. We ought not to deprive these women of benefits in the way the Clause intends. I apprehend that this Government is guilty of one idea that ought to be dispelled for good —the idea that a large number of our people are becoming over insured. There is a deadly fear in this Government that the working people will receive too much money from the several schemes. I do not myself dismiss the idea of over insurance, but there is not a single one of our working people insured under any scheme yet provided who has reached the stage of being over insured, and I do not think 10s. a week ought to stand in the way of these widows being included for health and unemployment insurance.

I turn now to the second category where the wife of the ex-service man is included in this Clause, or where it is the case of a widow of the service man. I cannot understand in this case too why that type of widow should be excluded from health and unemployment insurance, because surely they also will enter industry. I ask the Minister in charge to give us an explanation of why these thousands of women are to be excluded. I know full well that all widows who fall into these two categories will not enter into industry, but scores of thousands of them will be excluded entering these two schemes who ought to be included by virtue of the fact that they will require the benefit probably more than any of the type of women who are included.