Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am ar 15 Gorffennaf 1925.
I beg to move, in page 24, line 17, to leave out Subsection (2).
I think I had better read this Clause to the Committee. It provides as follows:
(1) In any case in which a Poor Law authority has granted outdoor relief to any person, being a person not in receipt of a pension, and either—
I have read this Clause to the Committee because when I first saw it I plead guilty to not having been able exactly to understand what it meant, and yet poor people are expected to know that there is such a Clause, and they will be expected to see to their outgoings, so that when the pension time arrives they will know that a large portion of it has to be paid back. The effect of this Clause is that if a person whose husband dies goes to the parish to get poor law relief when the pension does come through in three weeks or a month after the amount she has received up to 10s. a week, or supposing she has been getting 10s. a week, it will be paid to the authority that has to pay the amount. It does not become payable to the person entitled until the money which the authority has paid has been paid back. Surely that is the meaning of this Clause. One of the sub-sections applies
to children, and I want to say, first of all, that the ordinary man and woman paying into this fund will not know that there is any such provision; and secondly, that when a woman goes to a board of guardians to get relief, she will take it and spend it, and will be banking on getting her pension when the time comes for the money to be paid. It seems to me rather mean to want to take this back. I have always thought that was so in regard to widows' pensions connected with the Army and Navy, because those pensions are dealt with in exactly the same manner. I know it will be said that the woman ought not to get double assistance, but we are always very careful to see that the poor should not get too much.
(2) This Section shall extend to the case of a child in respect of whom an additional allowance or orphan's pension is not being paid in like manner as to the case of a person not in receipt of a pension, and shall apply in such a case subject to the necessary modifications.
Just think that, whatever the woman may get from the State ultimately, there is no hon. Member sitting opposite who would say that any widow will be able to bring up her children and herself on the money provided by this Bill. Anybody who gives a minute's thought to these things knows that that will be impossible. The Minister thinks that because of this Bill people will be more thrifty, and will make provision for themselves and add it to the pension, but there will be multitudes who will not be able to make any addition to the pension, and the right hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, and every Poor Law authority will tell him, that this sum of 5s. for the first child and 3s. for the next is absolutely inadequate for maintaining the children, whether they are young or whether they are children of 10 to 14 years of age. We ought to recognise that a few weeks will elapse before the woman can draw the pension, even if the Poor Law authorities do give her a few shillings relief, and the few pounds, say £5, £6 or £7 that would come to her when her claim has gone through should be a little nest-egg left to help her to carry on. It is not as though the State were paying this money, or as though it came out of the Exchequer in any way. It will come from the boards of guardians, and I believe—I am speaking in the presence of many members of boards of guardians—that the average board of guardians would be quite willing that this money should not be paid over. I think that this provision is on all fours with the one that the Committee has just carried. It is attempting to prevent the poor from getting too much, to prevent them from having a little extra. At the risk of being considered an extravagant person, I always feel that, when a poor person does get a small advantage, such as a widow would occasionally get under the terms of this Bill by getting a lump sum in pension at the end of, say, a fortnight or a month, that is money that we might very well leave to her and allow her to enjoy it. Therefore, I hope this Amendment will be accepted by the right hon. Gentleman.
Before I sit down, there is just one other question that I should like to ask. I did not want to detain the Committee on the main Amendment to the last Clause, but perhaps I may be permitted to ask the right hon. Gentleman now whether he can tell us, if this Amendment or any of these Amendments were carried, what would be the cost to the Exchequer? In this case he will not save anything at all, I admit, because if I understand the Clause rightly, he is only going to see to it that the local authority gets the money. It seems to me that it might be left to the local authorities, who, I am perfectly certain, would not want to penalise women in this way. If it is not out of order, I should very much like to know what the proposal we made on the last Clause would have cost the Exchequer had it been carried?